building windows is fun

[Neal Clayton]

cause every one can be a custom pattern without any (well, much) extra work.

building 3 casements to replace some rotten ~102 year old originals i have upstairs,

got the parts (mostly) cut today, and started mocking up the pattern to make sure the lengths were correct. mortises aren't done so that's why it bulges out.

i started with this....

CIMG0182.jpg

then it struck me that a lot of folks had patterns like that so i could do this instead...

CIMG0183.jpg

but i hated to waste the extra little muntins i had cut already so then i figured i'd put em on the side to use em, which ended up with this...

CIMG0184.jpg


anyway, i find it fun that there's something you can build which you can change completely mid-stream and have it still work . since the pattern is square and symmetrical the pieces will always fit, there are probably a half dozen other nice looking arrangements you could draw out of a hat and make work with the same pre cut lengths if you sat there and stared at it long enough.

[Dean Ousterhout]

What are you going to do for glass? double pane? Argon? LowE? Where does one get such glass?

We have been thinking about putting in a large picture window.

[Neal Clayton]

i just use single panes and thick drapes . my house is stucco and balloon framed, so the air cavity in the wall is a pretty good insulator. cooling isn't a problem, because of the inherent coolness of the stucco itself and the tile floors downstairs. the thick drapes stop radiant cool from coming off of the glass in the winter and i find that good enough.

if it wasn't, i'd put in storms.

if you want the glass to be more efficient without storms, imo insulated glass is better than double panes. insulated is two panes wedged over a piece of clear plexi in the middle. it's tricky to cut, absent a bandsaw with a diamond blade you have to cut both panes and then use some alcohol or other accelerant to cut the plexi with fire, so that would be best left to the glass shop if you haven't done it before.

but the insulated glass won't fail and trap moisture down the road like double panes with an air gap do. you just have to adjust the depth of the rabbets to accept the thicker glass, and can glaze it like you would a single pane, so you wind up with the traditional glazed look with the benefit of some insulation on the glass.

any art glass supply shop should be able to get whatever kind of glass you want, and cut if for you if you can't cut it yourself. check with someone in the yellow pages that does stained glass work, and ask them where they buy glass from.

[fRED mCnEILL]

I would like to know more aboiut insulated glass. It seems that when I google it I get mostly double paned stuff.

Do the glass people understand the difference between insulated and double glazed.

Thanks

Fredf Mc.

[Doug Carpenter]

I made myself an out swing exterior french door a couple years ago. I had my glass guy make up insulated laminated glass panes to go in it.

[Logan William]

I would like to know more aboiut insulated glass. It seems that when I google it I get mostly double paned stuff.

Do the glass people understand the difference between insulated and double glazed.

Thanks

Fredf Mc.

The reason you're getting mostly double pane stuff is because I(along with every major manufacturer of windows and glass) will disagree with Neal's definition of insulated glass. According to the Insulated Glass Manufacturer's Alliance(IGMA) which is the largest group of IG manufacturer's in the US and one of the bodies that helps create and define certifications and standards, Insulated Glass is:

"A combination of two or more panes of glass with a hermetically sealed air space between the panes of glass, separated by a spacer. This space may or may not be filled with an inert gas, such as argon."

One can have double pane windows without having an IG unit, however the energy performance of the unit will be lower. In some climates that won't matter, however in most it will make a difference. An average double pane(not IG) window with a standard LowE coating will likely have a U value(thermal transmittance) in the range of .5 to .6, if you take that same window and use a quality IG unit(with inert gas) in place of the double panes you will likely see U values between .3 and .40 depending on other factors. Now this may not seem like a large change in because of the small values but when you consider it as a % change its a huge improvement for a very reasonable cost in almost all cases.

As far as seal failure that Neal mentioned, yes the seals(there are generally 2) can and sometimes do fail. However the vast majority of IG units being made in the US today have 20 year warranties on that exact failure and the manufacturer(of the IG, not always the same as the manufacturer of the window) will replace the IG unit if it suffers a seal failure which is commonly shown by condensation between the panes.

I would consider Neal's glazing package as a quasi double pane/laminated glass offering as generally double pane's don't have anything in between, and true laminated glass(think safety glass) is generally a PVB or SGP interlayer that is molecularly bonded to the pane(s) of glass.

[Neal Clayton]

you're right, i meant laminated glass. i build windows and get them confused, how retarded is that

google laminated glass as logan mentioned and you should turn up what i was talking about.

[Logan William]

you're right, i meant laminated glass. i build windows and get them confused, how retarded is that

Not a problem, I've seen the pics of your work and thats what I figured happened, with all the terms floating around its very easy to get them mixed up and wanted to make sure that those who aren't working with windows on a daily basis don't get confused.

[Neal Clayton]

on that topic, though, one thing to consider with these thicker glass sizes.

the tenon is a function of your cope cutter and the amount you cut for the glass rabbet.

i use a 1/2" deep profile for the cope/stick joints. on a 1 3/8" window, that means a 3/8" glass rabbet would leave a perfect 1/2" left for the tenon (1 3/8 - 3/8 - 1/2 = 1/2). if you go with thicker glass, you have to ensure you wind up with enough left for a tenon. say your double pane unit or laminated glass unit is 3/8 thick, if you add that to a 1/2" cope/stick profile and you need to leave 1/4" on the outside for the glazing putty. well 1/4 + 3/8 + 1/2 = 1 1/8". that would be an awful scrawny tenon (1/4 left over). you would probably be better to make the wood parts thicker to compensate. i would say 1 5/8 to wind up with a 1/2 tenon, at least.

[Logan William]

on that topic, though, one thing to consider with these thicker glass sizes.

the tenon is a function of your cope cutter and the amount you cut for the glass rabbet.

i use a 1/2" deep profile for the cope/stick joints. on a 1 3/8" window, that means a 3/8" glass rabbet would leave a perfect 1/2" left for the tenon (1 3/8 - 3/8 - 1/2 = 1/2). if you go with thicker glass, you have to ensure you wind up with enough left for a tenon. say your double pane unit or laminated glass unit is 3/8 thick, if you add that to a 1/2" cope/stick profile and you need to leave 1/4" on the outside for the glazing putty. well 1/4 + 3/8 + 1/2 = 1 1/8". that would be an awful scrawny tenon (1/4 left over). you would probably be better to make the wood parts thicker to compensate. i would say 1 5/8 to wind up with a 1/2 tenon, at least.

Agreed, as glass gets thicker and thicker with heavier laminated panes in IG units and triple pane IG the sash parts have to get thicker and thicker in order to keep tenons big enough and the sash stout enough to withstand the operating and windloads of large, venting units.

[Leo Graywacz]

I use to build windows. Lots of windows. Usually about 70 12 lite sash a week. Milling, assembling, cutting glass and glazing.

Let me tell you. Building windows is not fun at that level.

[Larry Edgerton]

I use to build windows. Lots of windows. Usually about 70 12 lite sash a week. Milling, assembling, cutting glass and glazing.

Let me tell you. Building windows is not fun at that level.

I'll agree with that! I ocassionally have to build sash replacements for my restoration work, and anything over about 6, and I get bored. Usually when I get hurt it is on one of these kinds of jobs where it is hard to stay focused.

[Edward P. Surowiec]

Very good info ...thanks . But can anyone tell me how to remove the upper section of a Pella double hung window?? I have a crack in the outer IG and assuming that I can buy a new IG to fit the existing window I would like to replace it.
Thanks
Ed

[Logan William]

Very good info ...thanks . But can anyone tell me how to remove the upper section of a Pella double hung window?? I have a crack in the outer IG and assuming that I can buy a new IG to fit the existing window I would like to replace it.
Thanks
Ed

Without knowing the vintage and brand(Designer, Architect etc) of your window I'm going to guess that your best option is to call the local Pella Window and Door Store and have them order a replacement upper sash for that window. The vast majority of the DH's are groove glazed, which means the upper sash is assembled around the IG unit and there isn't a good way to get the IG out without replacing the sash. They should be able to determine what vintage your product is and as long as its not extremely old get a replacement sash ordered so that it will match the rest of the windows. With a new sash ready to go the uppers could be swapped out in minutes. The link to find your local Pella Store is below, hope that helps.

Pella Store Locator

[Neal Clayton]

yeah, from what i've seen of the wooden windows from the bigger manufactuers, they aren't really designed to be serviceable. on a traditional window maintenance is pretty simple. remove the putty, then you can remove the glass, then you can even take the sash apart into individual pieces if you need to. but glazing putty and oil paint take quite a while to cure. most of the manufacturers' construction methods seem to have been designed around trying to eliminate those time consuming steps/products.