Cherry finish again!

[John Grossi]

Hi, This is my first project using cherry. I came across 250 bf milled from a single cherry tree, air dried for 5 years. Currently making a hall butler which I will post IF the finish comes out right. My wife who is an artist and has a great eye for colors does the finishing. We are in a disagreement over the use of dye and I am hoping for another opinion. This is her suggestion,
1) transtint red mahogany dye mixed with denatured alcohol
2) 2lb cut garnet dewaxed shellac
3) finish with danish oil
Most of our furniture leans on the med. to dark. This piece will sit in an area getting very little natural light so I am not sure how much fade I will get. I told, rephrase that, mentioned to my wife, that I just don't want the cherry covered to the point that I could have used poplar, and she could have finished it to look like cherry. By the way, I did a very large entertainment center out of poplar that she finished with the entent of looking like cherry and it does. Any suggestions would be appreciated. John

[Bob Wingard]

I bought some Transtint Brown Mahogany for a recent Cherry project, and the sample boards were way too red ... I got some General Finishes Medium Brown water based Dye Stain and reduced it 50% with their reducer ... it's real close to what the client picked, but I don't think it has enough red for my taste. Somewhere in between would be perfect. For sure, go to Charles Neil's website and watch his video demonstration of a product he's brought to market .. Blotch Control. This stuff is amazing ... I played around with it a little before using it on this project, and I couldn't believe the results. You cannot tell the difference between heartwood/sapwood or where the new pink/salmon color of the veneered ply is joined to some 50 year old dark cherry lumber. I didn't bother with the shellac seal coat, and I'm just now preparing for top coating, which will be several coats of very thin Waterlox. Charles' product, in use, reminds me of the old days of candy apple color where you would put down a base coat of metal flake or pearl ... then topcoat with the tinted lacquer to add transparent color. His product seals the surface, and acts as the base coat. IT accepts the dye ... not the wood, so blotching is not even possible. Apply the dye liberally, and get it back off quickly ... it does it's job in just a very short time, and if you keep it wet for too long, it can begin to liquify the Blotch Control, which, in turn, might cause blotching. It's not at all difficult ... just get it on, and get it off without delay or overworking it, and you'll be fine. I don't know what he puts in this stuff (I've heard it is a blend of watered down white glue + some water based finish) but it is truly amazing to work with. The way it hides sapwood is worth the price alone ... you absolutely can not even find the sapwood after treatment and dyeing.

[Scott Holmes]

John,

If you must color cherry then dye in DNA is the best way to go.
You will be able to get a more even color if you spray the dye, no wiping needed.
2# cut of garnet shellac should impart a nice color, which is a personal choice.

The shellac will seal the wood; an oil/varnish blend applied to sealed wood is going to be a problem, (or a waste) 99% of it will be wiped off. So this will not do much to protect the wood. Oil/varnish blends are in-the-wood finishes.

If you are after an oil/varnish in-the-wood look why not use steelwool to knock the shine off the shellac and call it a day? Shellac has stood the test of time.

[Paul Murphy]

John,

If you must color cherry then dye in DNA is the best way to go.
You will be able to get a more even color if you spray the dye, no wiping needed.
2# cut of garnet shellac should impart a nice color, which is a personal choice.

The shellac will seal the wood; an oil/varnish blend applied to sealed wood is going to be a problem, (or a waste) 99% of it will be wiped off. So this will not do much to protect the wood. Oil/varnish blends are in-the-wood finishes.

If you are after an oil/varnish in-the-wood look why not use steelwool to knock the shine off the shellac and call it a day? Shellac has stood the test of time.

Scott, a question: Would it be better for John to dye, then apply danish oil and dry for ~3 days, and make the shellac a top coat followed by steel wool? That way he gets his "in the wood" finish plus the shellac he wants.

[Scott Holmes]

Scott, a question: Would it be better for John to dye, then apply danish oil and dry for ~3 days, and make the shellac a top coat followed by steel wool? That way he gets his "in the wood" finish plus the shellac he wants.

The only issue may be that while applying the oil/varnish blend he may remove/streak the dye. The oil/varnish blend is a good finsh for medium to light use. Shellac will stick to the oil/varnish blend very well.

[David Thompson 27577]

The following is just my opinion, and it is worth only what you have paid for it.


In my opinion, cherry is one of the most beautiful woods that our creator (or our mother earth, or whatever) has supplied us with.

And in my opinion, covering it with some sort of heavy glaze, or highly pigmented coating, is a crime against nature (or mother earth, or whatever).

Make the piece, assemble the piece, sand/scrape it till your done. Then set it in the sun for a week or so. If the sun isn't cooperative, wait for another week or so.

And when the cherry and the sun seem to be done with each other, put some clear finish on it.

And if your wife doesn't like it.................

(Just my opinion here..............)

Well, I guess there are other fish.

[John Grossi]

Okay, we are trying to figure this out. We live in Ohio, so letting the sun do its job is not really possible in the summer, let alone in the winter. What if we mixed a drop of the transtint dye in our garnett shellac (mixed with dna) until we got our color? That would be our base coat, middle coat, and finish coat. steel wool between all coats. We want kind of an antique look with a super hard finish. Thanks for the responses we have gotten so far. John

[Scott Holmes]

Finish with color added are technically toners... I know garnet shellac has color and it's not a toner...

Adding the dye to the 1st coat is very risky, if it's not right, you have no way to easily remove it.

If you want to use the shellac "toner" in the middle then that would be a bit easier. Remember shellac is not to be built up to a thick coat as you can with vanrish or lacquer.

As for the steelwool between coats I would suggest 320 grit sandpaper NOT steelwool.
My reason: steelwool between coats will leave small shads of steel trapped IN YOUR FINISH. They will rust, even in shellac, lacquer or varnish. Water vapor still get though the finish. (if it didn't we would not need to worry about RH and wood movement)

[John Grossi]

Scott, we have a few test boards set up, one of which has 1 coat of garnett shellac. That board was set aside, because the color was a brownish blonde. After reading your post we are going to hit it with the 320 as you suggest and then try a very small amount of transtint mixed in the shellac. Then again the 320 sandpaper. With some luck that may be it. By the way, we are absolutely sold on mixing our own shellac from the flakes. I built an artist's cabinet a few ago and my wife finished it with the shellac (soft maple). Came out to red for my tastes, however the finish is rock hard. Thanks for your advice so far. John

[John Coloccia]

Finish with color added are technically toners... I know garnet shellac has color and it's not a toner...

Adding the dye to the 1st coat is very risky, if it's not right, you have no way to easily remove it.

If you want to use the shellac "toner" in the middle then that would be a bit easier. Remember shellac is not to be built up to a thick coat as you can with vanrish or lacquer.

As for the steelwool between coats I would suggest 320 grit sandpaper NOT steelwool.
My reason: steelwool between coats will leave small shads of steel trapped IN YOUR FINISH. They will rust, even in shellac, lacquer or varnish. Water vapor still get though the finish. (if it didn't we would not need to worry about RH and wood movement)

Before going to Amber or Garnet, do you usually do a light coat of blonde first? I almost always start with a blonde because I've find that even Amber can cause uneven coloring on woods that are susceptible to it.

[Scott Holmes]

John C.

Yes, I typically I seal with blonde de-waxed shellac. Then I use toners or glazes. This makes it easier to fix problems. I don't usually use shellac as a toner I use lacquer toners.


John G.,

I don't think sanding your toner is a good idea. It's a very thin coat and sanding through makes a mess.