Issue with MM24 (was: Let's rip MiniMax for a while)

[Paul Symchych]

I may have missed something but what is it you do on your saw where 0.01" makes a difference?

[Chris Fournier]

I for one resaw dog biscuits every Sunday afternoon and the tolerances get pretty tight when the whole pack shows up.

I am pretty fussy but I consider the B-saw to be a primary breakout tool, not a precision tool. Of course I'd like my B-saw to be perfect but I'd worry about the table being square to the blade, blade drift and dust collection before I concerned myself with table flatness. The incorrect blade info on the saw would be frustrating taht first time around.

While not bandsaws, I've owned three MM machines and they've all been a real treat to own and the customer service has been solid. I consider their castings to be superb. Heavy - they have their own foundry.

[Rick Fisher]

I have a 20 year old version of that saw.. The blade size is 176" - 180" .. lol
Mine has a resaw height of about 13" .. I expect that your saw was made the year Centauro increased the resaw height.. and the " old stickers " where installed..

I changed the fence on mine to a Drift Master.. Fantastic Fence.. What an upgrade.

What I like best about this saw its heavy and will cut anything.. The saw was built to be pushed hard.

On the tolerances.. I never checked mine.. Bandsaw is a rough duty machine IMO.

[Dave MacArthur]

Some interesting points about the saw... but IMO a very poor choice of thread title, more calculated to arouse excitement than convey information...

[Robert Reece]

ok, so I changed the title to make it a little less sensationalist. I also went down this morning and remeasured the dip - I had remembered 0.010", but it's actually 0.022". That is pretty good size dip.

I think you guys are discounting the value of a flat table. When I take a piece of wood that is 10" tall and 1.5" wide and run it through to resaw, the 0.022" dip at the leading edge of the table causes the wood to not stand square to the blade. As it approaches the blade, the wood starts to stand up square to the blade, but doesn't quite make it there. Hence the layers I peel off the block are not uniform. So that is a real quality issue to me.

As for the other stuff (fence & dust collection), I'd just expect more from somebody who bills themselves as a "Cadillac" of bandsaws. I have the plywood insert in the bottom and I have a brush on the lower wheel. The saw is setup correctly, it just comes down to fundamental design issues.

Can I put a driftmaster fence on the machine? Sure, but I wouldn't expect to have to upgrade the fence on a saw of this caliber.

Oh well, another tool I'll put in the "expensive, but still not right category".

[ian maybury]

Mmmmm - it's never comfortable when you take a pop at a sacred cow Robert - but it doesn't mean you haven't got a point.

Here's another perspective. From my (European) viewpoint it's very unusual to find an Italian volume manufacturer of engineered products that's genuinely up there (in the best German or Japanese terms) on quality. They tend to focus on the functional basics at the design stage (and often show great flair in coming up with unique and excellent solutions in that regard), but seem to get bored after that. Customer service isn't usually high on their list of 'interesting' activities either.

There's also the problem that big band saws are probably not exactly high margin products for manufacturers. Not (based on my long experience of Italian cars and motorcycles, plus quite a few years managing equipment engineering projects in Italy and buying parts from Italian sources) that I'd expect that to make much difference - the Italian 'attitude', 'way' or industrial culture is probably a much bigger factor.

Inasmuch as you can generalise on this stuff it's always seemed to me quite a lot to do with societal norms - in that they tend to conform to them in organisations (influenced by their place in the pecking order), and don't seem to easily buy into what they probably see as rather abstract concepts like total quality that might require the individual to act outside of this. e.g. if the top dog isn't 100% behind it, then don't expect the organisation to be. God help you if you need assistance, but are not regarded as having 'clout'.

When buying a used band saw recently I looked at a couple of big UK spec Centauros, and while they were very solid boy were they crude - rusty, paint falling off, a wooden block for a lower guide, minimal dust collection etc. They looked very like they were made with the crudest of industrial requirements in mind (and many are crude) - a far cry from the image (and no doubt the broad reality) projected in the USA.

US expectations in terms of quality and service default very much to the other end of the spectrum. My best guess as to what probably goes on is that Minimax USA (and the other importers of Italian kit) screen incoming product very carefully, and may also add various upgrades and cosmetic tweaks. i.e they rely on the strong points of the design, but add the layers of quality, refinement and service needed to make the product acceptable to the US market. (or at least to the largely high end hobby/smaller professional end of it) Importers in markets like ours are much too small to be able to get into that sort of thing, so we tend to get the unvarnished article.


ian

[Chuck Wintle]

Something i was wondering about this non-flat cast iron table is green or non-aged cast iron can warp and twist over time as internal stresses work themselves out. Could this be typical of bandsaw tables?

[Tom Welch]

You purchased a used saw. An industrial saw at that. Did you not check it out before your purchase? And why would you buy a saw with a 0.022" dip in the table, if that bothers you so much? And how is it the manufactures fault, on an apparently very used piece of equipment, sounds like you did not check out your purchase like you should, and are shifting the blame. Man, when buying anything used (with out a warranty) it's a crap shoot. It's your responsibly to check it out before you lay down your hard earned money.

[Rye Crane]

Robert,

I have the same saw you are reporting on. Those four bolts under the table are the adjustment you will need to take the .022 dip out of the table. It's a
royal pain in the butt to adjust these bolts but cast iron is very, very flexible. Just use a square and adjust ONLY ONE bolt at a time. Trust me on this, if
you go about it like me and just start moving things around it can take a few days to work out theproblem and then your knees won't work as well ever again.

Be patient, you will be truly surprised at the amount of adjustment there is on the entire table.

I took my table over to a machine shop where they used the same Blanchard Grind as the OEM and they cleaned it up for me. It was new and the table had
an intransit grove gouged into it by a forklift. They when I got it back on the fun began getting it square to the blade.

The fence the saw comes with is not a woodworking fence. You need to make your own for resawing, make two while you are at it one high and one low. Mine
fit over the OEM fence and during the year I will check it and shim if necessary to make sure it's square to the blade. Your saw is a real workhorse I love mine.

Good luck,
Rye Crane
Pittsburg, CA

[Jim O'Dell]

It's a shame that the blade sticker wasn't correct. Did the person you bought it from say anything about blade length? If the sticker was off, I would have expected that person to say something like, "Oh, by the way, don't follow the blade length on the sticker...it's wrong." Surely in 5 years they purchased a blade for the machine and knew there was a problem. I'd agree that the dip in the table sounds like a non-issue, and correctable at that. Get yourself a new blade for Christmas, scrape the sticker off, make a label on the computer and stick on the inside of the top door for the proper length, spend a day adjusting the dip out of the table (go a little at a time), find some plugs for the holes in the top (holes for lifting the saw IIRC...my little MM E16 also has plastic plugs there to seal off. Maybe get some rubber plugs that you can tighten a bolt to make a squeeze fit in the hole), and enjoy the heck out of it!!! Jim.

[Leigh Betsch]

I think you and the saw should part company. Problem fixed. You will both feel better about it.

[Dave MacArthur]

Robert,
Your situation interested me as I bought a used Agazzani B-20, and found the table to not be flat. I had the same issue as you, where wood approaching the blade vertically as for resaw was being put significantly out of vertical due to table height differences across the slot for blade installation. Anyways, just want you to know that this is not a low-end or Laguna specific thing, even a perfect shape Agazzani can have similar issues. Hoping you get good comments and solutions here, as I'm going to ride along for my own solution Also, thanks for changing the title, now we can all feel like concerned users righteously seeking a deserved solution, rather than an angry mob looking for someone undefended to hang Ahhh, the power of the righteous stance!

Rye's comments above seem to hold great potential, but I'm hoping he will expand on how those bolts are used to straighten the table? I've taken some pics of my Agazzani below, img766.jpgthe four bolts I have hold the table to the trunnions at the four corners, and I did see they have adjusting nuts and could be threaded up against the table underside with various pressures, but didn't equate them to adjusting nuts... any info on this would help, I didn't see anything in my B20 manual.<br>img768.jpg<br>&nbsp;Also, on the front of the table across the slot is a bar to screw into both sides, it doesn't look like it would do much to keep sides level to each other, looks too thin and flimsy, but I found that the screws holding it to underside of table front were loose, and tightening them did indeed take out most of the table variance.img767.jpgimg769.jpg

[Rye Crane]

Dave,

I couldn't tell from your pictures how the bolts would work on the table. On the MiniMax (Centauro) those four bolts connect the table with it's connection to the
saw frame. You can't really call it a trunnon, although it works like one. It's just a bar that slips into a slot and the four bolts hold it all down. For example I adjusted
one bolt and it twisted the table up about 1/4" at the end. The ductile cast iron tables are very flexable. The trick becomes difficult when you get one side of the table square to the blade and then try to get the other sides square without changing the first. They all work together, it just takes time to dial it in. I recorded
each turn of each bolt and then reset and tried the opposite bolt the same amount noting the changes produced. Soon, it was just a matter of trial and error to
get it right.

Once your table is square to the blade side and back, it's easy to square the home made fence and your ready to cut away.

Sorry I can't be more specific. I'll try to find that area in the manual and post it on this thread.

Rye Crane

[Rye Crane]

Dave,

Here is the link to the manual that shows two of the four bolts that adjust the table.
http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php...=raw&Itemid=39

I hope this helps explain.

Rye Crane

[Rick Fisher]

Great Point Rye..

I restored my saw, including spending hours on the table.

This is a good photo of the underside of an MM-24 table ..