New Saw Handle.

[george wilson]

What I think is serious about those handles,is that you would even pay shipping for that one you got on Ebay,Marv.

[Ray Gardiner]

Interesting discussion, tradition versus innovation. I doubt we will ever reach a meaningful consensus anytime soon.

The point that has been somewhat missed, is what Stewie was trying to achieve was his own unique style and he has definitely achieved that with this handle design, (and for that matter the handle that preceeded it) beautiful craftsmanship and attention to detail. Whether it's practical and robust enough, probably not, time and usage will tell the tale, but I give the design full marks for style and execution.

My own view is we need both approaches, traditional, and innovative, understand the traditional designs, how and why they evolved the way they did, and never stop innovating, but filter all innovations with practical experience.

That's how those traditional designs came to exist in the first place.

Regards
Ray

[Leigh Betsch]

I only hope that some day I make something worthy of criticism by some of you!

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting discussion, tradition versus innovation. I doubt we will ever reach a meaningful consensus anytime soon.

Ray,

I think that is a very astute observation.

The problem may be that some will stay with the tried and true methods as if driven by faith without question.

Some will want to explore alternatives with total abandon to what has gone before.

There is a simple aspect that is forgotten often by both sides, "why?".

When one is armed with the knowledge of why things have been done in a certain way and why some other ways are not used, then one can innovate and avoid failures.

Stewie may have his saw handle last for a long time and give him many years of pride in his workmanship.

However, if it does give way at a weak spot, he will know from the feedback in this thread how to make a handle similar to this one with a bit more strength that will likely survive for many more years.

Not knowing Stewie, I can not say much about what he is trying to achieve, but if he wants to make fine artistic handles or whimsical saw handles for himself or to sale, he has a likelihood of finding success and maybe a lucrative niche market.

Traditions are a warm and fuzzy comfort to a craftsman. They are peaceful to the mind.

Innovations are the wings of an artist. They stir and pound in the heart.

Wings if not well anchored can spin out of control and fall.

jtk

[Marv Werner]

George,

Your comment about wondering why I would even pay the shipping for such a saw, implies to me that you think I'm stupid. I take exception to such a remark.

I posted it as kind of a joke, but it really isn't a joke at all. I apologize for going off topic, sorry Stewie.

I'm going to take the time here to attempt an explanation as to why I was motivated to buy the saw in such horrible condition.

When I saw it on eBay, it was one of the most sloppy repairs I've ever seen. At least I thought that before I gave it a little more thought. Then I started thinking about why it was repaired as it was, or why it was repaired at all.

There is no doubt an endless number of scenarios we can imagine.

First, how did the handle get broken to the extent that it is in the first place? Whoever repaired the handle had to have been in a desperate situation and really needed a saw and didn't have any other means to repair it so it could be used. It's a very old saw. At the time of the so-called repair, the only way to cut a board was with a handsaw. I look at that repair and see some very interesting and intriguing "out-side-the-box" innovation. I see something that represents a great need for sawing wood. Someone was without what we might think of as a normal method to repair such a handle and came up with the only way available to him. He did in fact accomplish his goal and ended up with a usable saw.

I am proud to own it. It reside among my other respected old saws. You, George, may see it as junk, not worthy of the shipping cost. I see it as a symbol of an interesting history that I can only imagine. I have refurbished hundreds of old saws, but I wouldn't change that saw in any way. I can conjure up more respect for that saw and what I imagine it represents than I can for any present day saw that is produced using present day technology.

Just a different and "valid" perspective.

[Marv Werner]

Jim,

Perhaps I misunderstood your post. Sorry for my snarky response

[george wilson]

Marv,I put up a so you would see that I am joking also. Maybe all of us should stop joking if it's going to be misunderstood,smilies and all. I certainly understood you were posting those handles as a joke. Well,after reading your last few posts,first you told Jim they were a joke,now you said it wasn't a joke. Now I don't know what you think about them.

Ray,you have stated what my sentiments are exactly. A firm background in classical design is needed before one goes experimenting. Too often this is lacking even in commercial industrial designers these days. This has lead to some of the terrible designs seen in some modern products and tools we see today.

[David Weaver]

>>Marv,I put up a so you would see that I am joking also. Maybe all of us should stop joking if it's going to be misunderstood,smilies and all.<<

We can call this the asperger's awareness hand tool users board....no jokes!!!

[george wilson]

Yes,but in one post he says they weren't to be taken seriously. In the next he says they ARE to be taken seriously,and he values them very much. And,the one with the bent flat metal repair he values more than any saw made with modern technology. What am I supposed to believe?????

I guess you,Marv,value the old,repaired saw more than those I've made too. I did use some modern tech,like sawing out the handles with a bandsaw,and punching the teeth with a tooth punching machine. Is that true? Actually, that would also have to include Wenzloff,LN,LV,and all the other high class makers too. They all use modern technology in making their saws.

[Don C Peterson]

Can't we all just get along???

Seriously though, I think it's critically important to understand why things were done a certain way in the first place before attempting to "innovate."

I see this all the time in my line of work; after a cursory glance at a system, someone (usually with very limited experience) will make a recommendation to "fix" things. What normally happens, thankfully, is that the suggestion is noted and rejected, but sometimes it's actually acted on which means that all the lessons that went into the original design are relearned with a healthy side order of pain.

After years of seeing this phenomenon I came up with a saying of my own: It's true that there is almost always more than one right way to do something, but the number of wrong ways is nearly infinite.

Why anyone would choose to disregard the hard earned lessons of our ancestors is beyond me...

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the old ways are always best, but unless you are familiar with how things are done and WHY, how do you judge whether a change is actually an improvement?

[Don C Peterson]

>>Marv,I put up a so you would see that I am joking also. Maybe all of us should stop joking if it's going to be misunderstood,smilies and all.<<

We can call this the asperger's awareness hand tool users board....no jokes!!!

As a parent of a child with asperger's, I'm NOT offended! LOL

[george wilson]

Well,it should have been clear that I was joking,and initially Marv said the saws weren't to be taken seriously. I thought I WAS getting along. Now,I'm just confused.

[Karl Andersson]

Stewie, trying to get back on topic (if you're still reading your thread), I am working up a backsaw handle design too and found this good website with a progression of Disston backsaw handle designs: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/p...Disston-01.asp

Number 13 is very similar to yours in shape - if you sanded off the Disston's forward "horn". The big difference in design, as George points out, is the length of cross-grain in the Disston vs yours - you can see how the Disston design tilts the grain more tangent to the saw blade and also lowers the top arch of the grip so it has a continuous piece of straight grain from the cheek to the handle, although that area is pretty small in cross-section.

It is also very interesting to see where failures occurred in these very old saws - a number of the examples have cracked in the small lower "lamb's tongue" strap where there are very short cross-grain sections. They also occur where there is an excentric change in the curve, from a tight radius to a more open one, seemingly concentrating the flex there. Your design is more flowing (organic?) so maybe it will survive better.

Thanks for sharing your work,
Karl

[Marv Werner]

George,

I'm going to try to take the high ground here and not escalate this part of this thread to a point where the mod will be tempted to lock this thread. That would be inconsiderate of Stewie, the OP.

These kind of discussions, if we can all it that, accomplish little or nothing. I'm going to respectfully say this, then I'm done with this part of the thread. What set me off in the first place was when you said my "hang-it-all-out philosophy was invalid". In fact, I used a well used phrase about stepping outside the proverbial box, when I referred to Stewie's handle design. Then when I responded to you with what I really meant when I referred to "stepping outside the proverbial box", you ignored that explanation and continued to reiterate your misinterpretation of what I said.

A lot of people here in this forum obviously hold you in high regard and have great respect for your accomplishments and skill level. Your social skills, on the other hand, in my opinion, are lacking.

On occasion during the short time I have been posting in this forum, I have attempted to give you compliments on various things you have done. You don't seem to respond to compliments. Is it because you don't feel that we, or more specifically, I, am capable of recognizing when someone like yourself has accomplished something of significance? I find it disrespectful when a compliment is not acknowledged. To me, in general terms, it lowers the credibility of the one being complimented.

I suspect, once I post this, I'll be slammed by many of the posters in this thread for expressing my thoughts and opinions. That's ok, it's expected. And because I expressed my thoughts, this thread will more than likely be locked. Should that happen, my apologies to Stewie.

My apologies to those who find what I have written here to be out of order. In the future, I will make every attempt to only contribute to specific questions relating to the original post.

[David Weaver]

As a parent of a child with asperger's, I'm NOT offended! LOL

I know that I'm going to get someone offended with that, definitely not my intention, thanks for not huffing through the forum and making me lose my sense of humor. I really like to have fun at the expense of *people who can help it* and never at the expense of people *who can't*, but sometimes that is difficult to do.

For 8 years at a prior employer, one of my project worker bees was high-functional autistic guy, so I learned first hand how many different ways someone will take something differently than you intended (in a very literal black and white way, and usually much worse than what you meant), and that jokes and mild sarcasm, no matter how much you explain them, are just better avoided.

Thus, the comment about avoiding jokes, meant to disparage us for our lack of humor sometimes because we *can* help it, and not folks who can't.