My life as a infill maker is over

[David Weaver]

260 is "cartridge brass", right?

[David Weaver]

Actually,I have used cold rolled as the finish is smoother,and no crust to show between the surfaces where their edges show in a dovetail.

We po folk sand that off! By hand, even.

[Halgeir Wold]

"Naval brass" is a term I've never heard of in my neck of the woods......?
Anyone care to give some more spec's that I can use over here in Europe ?

[Wes Grass]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass

[David Weaver]

"Naval brass" is a term I've never heard of in my neck of the woods......?
Anyone care to give some more spec's that I can use over here in Europe ?

I believe the alloy number is 464 (i don't know whose standards that is), no lead in it. It is expensive stuff, expensive enough that I've never bought it in raw stock form. I know wayne anderson uses it and likes it.

[Halgeir Wold]

Thanks, both of you..... :-)

[Raney Nelson]

Just to offer an alternate view - I will never use mild steel in a plane again. It peens exceptionally well, but the two planes I made with it suffered from a LOT of distortion to the sole from peining. The time I saved in peining was more than made up for in having to lap the sole. And after a good friend suggested I check, a year later I checked and found that the mild steel had moved even more. Also, now that I have a mill it's much less of an issue, but when I worked with just a hacksaw and files I found removing waste from mild steel to be remarkably frustrating. It doesn't

If I had the sort of broad metalworking background that George has, I suspect I'd probably have a much broader capacity to deal with these things, but for me the metalwork is completely secondary to the wood and the final product. I find O1 to be a much more idiot-proof material overall. I can't say I've ever had it work-harden on me at all, and it's certainly never chipped on me. 300-series stainless is another story...

Personally, I much prefer bronze to brass but if I wanted brass I'd agree to stick with 260 (cartridge brass) or Naval brass (464) for a prettier, maintenance-free surface.

Also - 45 degree dovetails are, not to put to fine a point on it - insane. I use 10-12 for the tails, and 8-10 for the secondary dovetails. The tails are still quite visible, and peining anything over 10 degrees into the secondaries is a nightmare.

edit: I just saw the point about using an alternative connection to dovetails - both Holtey and Ron Brese use variations on threaded pins to secure sidewall to sole. I like the traditional dovetails, but from a purely functional standpoint, those methods make at least as much sense. Personally, having messed just a little with the notion, I'd say that they're far from a shortcut, though - they require really precise machining and workflow management to get 'right'...I've never seen a sliding dovetail, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out. There are also any number of methods of brazing soles to sidewalls out there as well.

For me, though, the aesthetics and tradition will probably always keep me in the dovetails.

[Leigh Betsch]

Thanks for all the advise. I'm heading back to the shop today to give things another try. I contacted Tom Walz about silver soldering brass to steel. I think that is a better option for me. I sure hate pounding and peening on something that I've got fitting with nice precision. I have no problem getting the dovetail to fit precisely, so the metal fit will look just fine without having to peen things together. I used a 45 degree dovetail because that is a standard angle that you can get metal dovetail cutters in, I've not seen any in the 7 to 15 degree range. I'll give George's suggestion about using a standard carbide wood router bit a think through and maybe give it a try. I have to check my steel supply, I know I have plenty of O1 in the right thickness, I don't know what I have laying around in mild steel right now, and my brass supply is limited to the 1/2 hard stuff that didn't peen very well. So I think it will be O1 and 1/2 hard brass but if I silver solder I don't think that should be a issue this time around.

Now if I can get my cam software to work again I can get the cnc mill to do all the hard profile work, but that's another story.........

[Leigh Betsch]

I re-read George's post regarding using a HSS router bit. As I only have carbide, it will be carbide router bit or my milling cutter at 45, gotta do some noodling on this one. I want to make sure the mouth of the sole is fixed tightly, and the pitch of a the 45 degree dovetail may not lend itself to to doing this very well.

[Raney Nelson]

Leigh,

I have custom 4-flute carbide cutters ground to different angles -- not dirt cheap, but not terrible. Just one note, though, on the peining -- if you're doing it right, it really shouldn't feel abusive. Can I suggest that you skip the 45 for the secondary dovetails? I really can't wrap my head around trying to move that much material around. Even if you get them to close up, I suspect you'd end up really only folding them over rather than filling the gap. The problem with that, beyond the structural concerns, is that when you start to clean up you're likley to uncover huge gaps all over again.

Use your 45s for the primary dovetails, and just use a triangular or barrette file to put shallow secondaries in place. This is really not a very onerous task - probably took me under 2 minutes per pin when I did them that way.

The only reason I'd be averse to the silver solder is that I'd be concerned it will be visible in the final product. That's hardly an area I know much about, though - I'd be interested to see how they turn out.
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[george wilson]

I cannot respond to the use of 01 as a plane sole,as I've never used it. I just have used mild steel on all the planes I have previously posted here, including the long plane in the black and white photo, and can only cite the original old makers who used wrought iron or mild steel in theirs. At the time I made them,I had hardly any metal working equipment,except for a lathe.

Perhaps if I make another plane I'll try 01 for the sole.

[Raney Nelson]

Your point is well taken, George - I generally tend to stick to the old makers' techniques whenever possible as well -- I rarely go wrong with that approach, and I prefer to learn from experience than remake all the old mistakes. In this case, however, my own experience has shifted me in a different direction. I've talked to quite a few of the modern makers quite a bit, and this seems to be a point on which people fall firmly on one side or the other. I know of several who firmly avoid mild steel, and at least one who sees no point whatsoever in using anything but mild steel. So I suppose this is one of those cases where either approach is valid - there are certainly any number of spectacular planes out there as proof of either approach.

I've always wanted to try a plane with wrought iron, but it's not really an off-the-shelf material. Someday, I'd like to obtain some though just for the experience of making one with the oldest materials...

One of the other things I quite like about O1, though, is the range of finishes I can easily get with it. Not the easiest picture to see it on, but the toe piece and chamfers on this plane are polished fairly highly (about 800 grit-equivalent), while the sidewalls are more matte (probably 220 equivalent - I dont recall). I never did have as much success with mild steel aesthetically - though in fairness, I probably didn't put as much effort into working with it.

[george wilson]

Very pretty. I hope that my soon to be new eyes will help me to be more energetic. I like making planes,but have been tired,and too grumpy,too. It is supposed to take 30 percent of your energy to run your eyes. Maybe without the cataracts I won't be quite so tired,and can get back to making tools and guitars.

[Leigh Betsch]

I'm sure you'll get back in the groove George. I've heard good things about cataract surgery. I had my eyes lasek'd for near sightedness about 12 years ago, worked out well, but now they are getting that old age thing. Kinda weird though, I'm getting nearsighted not far sighted like most. I take my glasses off a lot in the shop so I can see up close better. Then I have to look around for my glasses, I'm always laughing at myself now days!

I got my tails re-cut this afternoon. I'll finish up the pins in the evenings this week, and then wait for the silver solder and flux to arrive.

The good news is I found some free cam software that looks like it will work to replace my copy of Surfcam that went on the blink. So my cnc mill is back up and running. That's going to make cutting the sideplate profile a lot easier for me. I may even just mill out a couple of infill smoother side plates too!!

Wish you well with the surgery.

[Stephen Pereira]

Actually,I have used cold rolled as the finish is smoother,and no crust to show between the surfaces where their edges show in a dovetail. I've never used precision ground stock in any plane I have made. Brass can only be had with a smooth,rolled surface anyway.

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Good advice to the OP, George. However, I don't like cold rolled..finish is nice to begin, nice square edges ..saves a lot of sanding, grinding whatever BUT the experts say that cold rolled moves more than hot rolled when machined. Can't say yay or nay based on personal experience.

Soak hot rolled in dilute HCL to remove most of the scale before you begin machining or take an AGGRESIVE first cut to get under the scale..saves on milling cutters.

Anyway, I'm following this thread with great interest. Lots of good info shared.