Power Feeder wiring to shaper

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hey guys,
I just drilled and bolted my power feeder to my shaper last night. A little scary for me to be drilling through my beautiful cast iron top but I value my fingers more, I guess . I have been trying to figure out how to wire up the feeder to the shaper so that when you hit the emergency stop button on the shaper EVERYTHING shuts down. I would also like to be able to turn on each component separately. I think I figured it out, but now I need a magnetic switch with overload protection for the feeder. It will be mounted on the back of the shaper so it needs to be in its own sealed box. can anyone recommend a top quality mag switch for a 3ph 1hp motor?

[Rob Russell]

On the Felders, you can wire the accessory feeder power outlet into the control panel such that the "master" power switch energizes the feeder and the emergency kill stops everything. No additional magnetic switches are required. It's a matter of tying into the right relay. I'd call Minimax or check the wiring diagram (if you have one) and tap in right after the master power. That way you can simply use the on/off on the feeder.

[John Motzi]

Hi Paul,

I had a similar need a couple years ago for my Inca jointer/planer - I wanted to mount the switch out of the way in a sealed box behind the unit but wanted the operating buttons in the most convenient location for saftey.

I made my switch using components from AutomationDirect and AlliedElec. From AD I used a GH15CN contactor ($20.25) with a RTD32-1400 overload relay ($25); Their catalog & website has tables to spec the correct one for your motor size. I mounted it using a small scrap of DIN rail inside an enclosure from AlliedElec (part #500-1816 $16.77); For the switches I used a separate box (part #SA105-40SL $7.00) from AD and their momentary contact pushbutton switches GCX1102 ($5.50) for start and GCX1111 ($6.00) for stop. Also got some cord grips & locknuts from AlliedElec to match the cable sizes and knockout sizes. AD also has some silicone dust covers for their switches. Total cost of the project approx $100;

The main power goes to the contactor/overload relay inside the big box and coming out of that box from the contactor/relay is the power line to the motor. Also coming out of the big box is the small control line for the switches. For a wiring diagram I used the scheme from my table saw which had a similar seup with different brand components.

You could also add a larger mushroom type switch in series with the stop switch in case you wanted to be able to stop either or both units from a different location.

I don't have a digital camera yet so no pics

I hope I didn't confuse you.

John Motzi
Downingtown, PA

[Paul B. Cresti]

On the Felders, you can wire the accessory feeder power outlet into the control panel such that the "master" power switch energizes the feeder and the emergency kill stops everything. No additional magnetic switches are required. It's a matter of tying into the right relay. I'd call Minimax or check the wiring diagram (if you have one) and tap in right after the master power. That way you can simply use the on/off on the feeder.

Rob,
yes the MM has this option, at least that is what the manual says, and we all know how good european manuals are! From what the tech told me It does not make "sense" to me to wire it that way. The main switch will control all electric power so I can not come off of that directly or I will not be able to use the emergenct stop button for all. I was told to come off of the secondary (shaper) switch but this does not make sense to me because the shaper will need to be on in order to get power thru this switch. If I tie into the "in" side of the shaper switch I will then loose the overload protection the switch has.
The shaper manual says to wire into an approved tap on the machnie you are connecting to that has overload protection. So my idea is to wire the feeder into the "in" side of the shaper switch (which will allow the emergency stop button to function) and then add a mag switch with the appropriate sized overload protection for the feeder. Does that make any sense at all???

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hi Paul,

I had a similar need a couple years ago for my Inca jointer/planer - I wanted to mount the switch out of the way in a sealed box behind the unit but wanted the operating buttons in the most convenient location for saftey.

I made my switch using components from AutomationDirect and AlliedElec. From AD I used a GH15CN contactor ($20.25) with a RTD32-1400 overload relay ($25); Their catalog & website has tables to spec the correct one for your motor size. I mounted it using a small scrap of DIN rail inside an enclosure from AlliedElec (part #500-1816 $16.77); For the switches I used a separate box (part #SA105-40SL $7.00) from AD and their momentary contact pushbutton switches GCX1102 ($5.50) for start and GCX1111 ($6.00) for stop. Also got some cord grips & locknuts from AlliedElec to match the cable sizes and knockout sizes. AD also has some silicone dust covers for their switches. Total cost of the project approx $100;

The main power goes to the contactor/overload relay inside the big box and coming out of that box from the contactor/relay is the power line to the motor. Also coming out of the big box is the small control line for the switches. For a wiring diagram I used the scheme from my table saw which had a similar seup with different brand components.

You could also add a larger mushroom type switch in series with the stop switch in case you wanted to be able to stop either or both units from a different location.

I don't have a digital camera yet so no pics

I hope I didn't confuse you.

John Motzi
Downingtown, PA

John,
No did not confuse me. It is kind of scary that i sort of follow the whole thing! After all my electrical projects I have done over the years and now going to three pahse I have almost (and I do stress almost) become a electrician and dare I say it and electrical engineer ! But please do not think I have changed because I am still an Architect I was trying to see if I could get a all in one unit like the ones you can get from Grizzly or Wilke machinery. I did not want to buy something cheap after all the investments I have made into my machinery though. I had an old mag switch that I was going to use for my DC and I pulled it apart and it has basically, I think, what I am after. A switch and coil all neatly packaged in one NEMA case. What do you think are these mag switches worthy of my setup??

[Rob Russell]

Rob,
yes the MM has this option, at least that is what the manual says, and we all know how good european manuals are! From what the tech told me It does not make "sense" to me to wire it that way. The main switch will control all electric power so I can not come off of that directly or I will not be able to use the emergenct stop button for all. I was told to come off of the secondary (shaper) switch but this does not make sense to me because the shaper will need to be on in order to get power thru this switch. If I tie into the "in" side of the shaper switch I will then loose the overload protection the switch has.
The shaper manual says to wire into an approved tap on the machnie you are connecting to that has overload protection. So my idea is to wire the feeder into the "in" side of the shaper switch (which will allow the emergency stop button to function) and then add a mag switch with the appropriate sized overload protection for the feeder. Does that make any sense at all???

You'd need to route the power for the feeder through the relay that the E-stop switch controls. It's possible that you'd need to add another relay, but there should be space on the rails in your shaper's control panel.

[John Weber]

Paul,

I think I would either wire it in the shaper panel assuming you are ok with the setup or leave it on it's own line. To add another switch circuit to a shaper that already has 2? (main and spindle I assume), just seems like the water is starting to get muddy. Three triggers seem like a lot to get the shaper moving, thus you might be temped to bypass one or get confused as to what is on and what is off. My PF just plus into a 220 line next to the shaper, I thought about tapping power off the main swtich, but didn't see much of an advantage. Since the PW is not wired with the shaper I can easy run it for set up and other test. I might not have understood your question, but often the KISS system is best.

John

[Rob Russell]

John,

The way a lot of the MM and Felder machines are wired is that there is a master on/off, with separate start/stop switches. That's a bit different than a typical American machine that just has an on/of switch.

The advantage to wiring the feeder into the shaper's circuitry is that you power up the whole mess with the master power switch, and that provides power to the feeder as well. By tying the feeder into the stop switch, if you're running stock and need to kill things fast, you hit the E-stop and it drops power to both the spindle and stock stops feeding. Otherwise, you might hit stop to kill the shaper and have to reach over to the feeder to shut it off, meaning that you're continuing to feed stock full speed until you get to that second switch. The only problem with this setup is if there isn't a separate E-stop switch.

Rob

[Paul B. Cresti]

You'd need to route the power for the feeder through the relay that the E-stop switch controls. It's possible that you'd need to add another relay, but there should be space on the rails in your shaper's control panel.

Rob,
By relay do you mean, switch? I also need and overload protection for the feeder does a relay have that?

[Rob Russell]

Paul,

Before we go much further, i'd just want to verify that the 4 switches on your T50 shaper are what I think they are. Looking at the pic on the MM website,

- black knob is the master on/off
- green button above black knob is shaper spindle start
- red button next to black knob is shaper spindle stop
- red mushroom is emergency stop.

Are those assumptions true? If so, what is the difference between what your stop and E-stop buttons do right now? If you ask MM what the difference is, what do they tell you?

Rob

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul,

Before we go much further, i'd just want to verify that the 4 switches on your T50 shaper are what I think they are. Looking at the pic on the MM website,

- black knob is the master on/off
- green button above black knob is shaper spindle start
- red button next to black knob is shaper spindle stop
- red mushroom is emergency stop.

Are those assumptions true? If so, what is the difference between what your stop and E-stop buttons do right now? If you ask MM what the difference is, what do they tell you?

Rob

Rob,
By the way thanks for taking the time for helping me here, I appreciate it greatly. I am just trying to get as much info as I can from everywhere I acan think of before I start messing with a perfectly working machine. it was scary enough for me to drill the top!

Ok, starting from the top right- master power switch, below it- machine on/off
top left- E-stop, below it spindle rotation. That is it.

MM told me to wire it into the machine switch but, I do not think I will have overload protection for the feeder. I can see the E-stop will work but just not sure on the protection. That is why I thought if I added a new mag switch with protection rated for the feeder at the same connection point what is the worst I have done other than add an additional button I have to press to start the feeder.

[Rob Russell]

I'm assuming that you first turn the "machine on/off" to on and that basically powers up the machine. To start the spindle, you hit what you called the "master power switch" and what I see as a green push button. Is that correct?

What is the difference between the "spindle stop" button and the E-stop button? If you hit the E-stop, does it completely depower the machine, requiring you to hit the "machine on" again? I'm just trying to get an idea as to how the 2 stop switches differ.

[Paul B. Cresti]

I'm assuming that you first turn the "machine on/off" to on and that basically powers up the machine. To start the spindle, you hit what you called the "master power switch" and what I see as a green push button. Is that correct?

What is the difference between the "spindle stop" button and the E-stop button? If you hit the E-stop, does it completely depower the machine, requiring you to hit the "machine on" again? I'm just trying to get an idea as to how the 2 stop switches differ.

Rob,
First there is no green button as the website shows. The "main power" switch is a turn knob (red color) upper right corner - this controls all power to the circuitry. The turn knob below it is the "shaper" regular on/of switch (black color) - this turns the shaper on and off under regular operating conditons.
The upper left is the E-stop button that when depressed shuts the "shaper" switch off and requires you to reset that one and the E-stop button in order to turn the shaper on again. The turn knob below the E-stop is simply spindle rotation direction.

[Rob Russell]

Paul,

Please excuse the length of this post, but there's a bit I need to explain. I’ll start with some terms and go from there.

Terms

Relay – a remote-controlled switch. A magnetic relay has an electromagnet inside it. When current flows through the control coil, it generates a magnetic field. That magnetic field pulls the moving part of the relay and either makes or breaks the contacts.

Contacts – the circuit parts of a relay or a switch that you use. There are 2 types – NO (Normally Open) and NC (Normally Closed). When the relay actuates, a NO contact is closed – think of turning a light on. A NC contact is the opposite – when the relay is at rest, i.e. when the control coil is not powered – the NC contact is complete. When the relay actuates, a NC contact opens. Think of a light that’s always on, but turns off when the relay actuates.

Contactor – a heavy duty relay, one that’s designed for motor loads.

Overload relay – a special type of relay. The control coil is tied into current sensors. When the current flowing through the overload relay exceeds the set point, it opens the relay. Think of a circuit breaker tripping.

Motor Starter – a contactor + overload relay. It combines the control function of the contactor with the overload protection the motor needs.

Wiring

You need to add a motor starter. This gives you the overload protection for the feeder without interrupting any function to the shaper spindle motor. I would feed this motor starter straight from the power cord. The benefit to this is that it’s not pulling the additional current through the shaper’s contactor, but you can still use the switch wiring. How you use the switch wiring may be a little tricky and the next step is to describe how a contactor’s wiring works.

You have a combination of a NO Start switch and a NC Stop switch. The NO switch supplies power to the contactor’s coil when you push it in. As soon as the coil has power, the contactor energizes and activates. There will be an extra NO contact on the contactor for what is called a “holding circuit”. This holding circuit is feed by one of the incoming power leads. The holding circuit loops around and provides power to the contactor coil to keep the contactor activated. Now, you might ask yourself - If I have this circuit looping back around to the control coil, how do I kill the circuit? Simple – that’s where the NC Stop switch comes in. The NC switch is in the middle of that loop. Because it’s NC, power flows through the switch until you push it. As soon as you push the switch, power to the contactor’s coil is interrupted and the contactor opens. The contactor doesn’t reactivate until you push the start button again.

I’ve attached picture of a schematic I posted for Frank Pellow’s dust collector wiring that graphically shows how the Start and Stop switches are wired in.
<img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10806">

Wiring-wise, you’ll want to tie into the 2 existing switches on your machine. With any luck, the switches will have an unused contact. If not, you should be able to add a contact to the switches. Failing that, you can feed the motor starter off of the main contactor – a 1HP, 3-phase feeder shouldn’t draw enough amperage to be a problem.

Some things you need to investigate:

• What is the control voltage used in the shaper (probably 24vac or 24vdc)?
• What is the amperage rating on the power feeder motor? You need to know that to size the overload.
• Not critical, but what brand contactors do they use in the shaper? You might want to match, just because you might find it easier to mount the same brand in with the others in the control panel, especially if the MM contactors are rail-mounted.

A good place to look for contactors is ebay.

Does all of this make sense? If not holler.

Rob

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Paul,

It sounds like a case of beer for your favorite millwright of plant eletrictian would be money well spent.

Good luck