Tablesaw accidents question

[David Prince]

I didn't want to get off-track on the recent SS thread and mandates for safety, so I thought I would post a new thread and pose a question.

I personally think the smaller benchtop saws are dangerous.

I personally think that some people are naturally careless.

I personally think that some people are more accident-prone.

I personally think that some people try to use power tools that don't know what they are doing.

I personally think that some people aren't very mechanical and should stay away from any and all tools.

I personally think that some people continue to use dull blades and force wood through it just to "get one more cut out of the blade". (or they don't know they have a dull blade)

I personally think that some people neglect regular maintenance on their tools.

I personally think that some people attempt to make a saw do something it shouldn't (like using a miter gauge and a ripfence at the same time).

Given these opinions, I think there is a need for SS safety features. BUT, if you take away all of the above pre-existing conditions, how many table saw accidents happen to those folks that do not fit into the above catagories?

(Feel free to add observations that I may have missed)

I personally do not feel that I fit into any of the above catagories and want to have a choice whether I chose to purchase a safety feature on my saw or not.

[Rod Sheridan]

Well David, the SS safety feature is a secondary safety system designed to reduce the severity of accidents when the primary systems have failed.

I haven't had an accident however I had a close call a few years ago when I smacked my hand into the overarm blade guard on my saw in a moment of carelessness when I tried to catch a piece that was falling off the saw table.

If I didn't have the overarm guard I would have contacted the blade. SS would have been a great secondary system, no guard/no SS and I would have been a statistic.

I always use guards, I have over 30 years experience in industry and am extremely safety conscious.

I agree that people try to make table saws do things they're not meant to do, such as dado, rebate, tenon etc without suitable guards.

Once people remove the primary safety system ( mechanical guards) on any machine other than a SS, there are no safety systems in place.

Being safety conscious/experienced/knowledgable etc. is no substitute for a safety system, since people do make mistakes, and unplanned occurrences do happen.

It may not have happenned to you yet, and it may never happen, however relying on personal skills exclusively to keep you safe is an approach that stastically leads to failure.

regards, Rod.

[David Prince]

FWW gave a statistic that 31,400 table saw injuries are reported every year. Take out the types of people that I listed and what would the odds be for those of us that are left?

To me, buying a SS is like buying insurance. If I am healthy, don't smoke, eat right, no family history, and exercise regularily, etc. I have a better chance of not having a heart attack. Would I go out and buy extra health insurance policies just in case I have a heart attack?

I am not saying that I "couldn't" be injured on a tablesaw, but think that the chances are minimal.

[Tom Walz]

I have to agree with you that the chances of some people getting hurt are considerably better than for others.

Don't have any problems with your lists but I do have a couple comments.

Every time I've read something about driving or anything similar it shows that the great majority of people think that they're better than average. I would imagine this would hold true for power tools as well.

Over the years it has seemed to me that people are more likely to get hurt doing unfamiliar tasks. We are especially strict when we train a new person on a new task. Even something as simple as a spring cleanup is cause for concern here because people are doing unfamiliar tasks.

In your program, I think you would need to work in some sort of training option.

Tom

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi David, I agree that if you use primary safety equipment the SS is the backup system.

If you don't use the primary system then you have no safety system without SS.

So David, if you always use the primary safety systems then yes I agree, you're buying a second level of insurance.

If you don't always use the primary system then the chances aren't minimal..........regards, Rod.

[Mike Henderson]

FWW gave a statistic that 31,400 table saw injuries are reported every year. Take out the types of people that I listed and what would the odds be for those of us that are left?

To me, buying a SS is like buying insurance. If I am healthy, don't smoke, eat right, no family history, and exercise regularily, etc. I have a better chance of not having a heart attack. Would I go out and buy extra health insurance policies just in case I have a heart attack?
I am not saying that I "couldn't" be injured on a tablesaw, but think that the chances are minimal.

When looking at risk, you have to look at the odds and also look at the consequences if the odds go against you. So for a risk where the consequence is death, you'd want to do everything possible to prevent the consequence.

When you look at a table saw accident, death is certainly possible, but it's more likely you'll have a disability for life as a consequence. How much you want to spend on "insurance" to prevent that is up to you.

Mike

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David,

Unless I have orders from my better half, I won't buy SS for personal reasons.

Buying extra insurance? Often landing on the side of caution pays off, though......it's payed off for me.....I paid a small amount for insurance for 24 years...and it's paying off now.....not heart attack insurance, mind you....though with the family history on the paternal side of my family it might not be a bad idea.

My wife and I just retired and she continues to pay for cancer insurance for us through her former employee......of course, she's an 18 year cancer survivor and we know what it can do and cost.

BTW...I am not nor have I ever been employed by an insurance company. But...I have a good neighbor who is an insurance agent and I elk hunted with another insurance agent with the same company as my neighbor.

[Metod Alif]

As David says, and more: I believe that all tools from the hammers, chisels, planes and up should be made operable only by remote controls, no less than 93" from the operator. But then, somebody is bound to swallow them (the controls), drop them or use them as a hammer - and the vicious cycle will get repeated.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Aaron Kitchell]

This logic is flawed. Purchasing a SS isn't like taking out additional heart attack insurance, it's the difference between having cut rate insurance and quality insurance. To Rod's point above and in keeping with your analogy, having an SS saw would be like eating right your whole life, exercising, getting routine physicals, monitoring cholesterol levels, fat intake, sodium quantities etc, essentially doing all the right things, being educated, understanding how your body works, but still insisting on good health insurance because there are things that come up whether it be a car accident, a fall down the stairs or a health problem. Similarly, you can be completely educated on your tools, maintain the tools, replace blades regularly, take WW classes, read books, and practice the utmost safety, but things happen and having a SS is your high quality insurance and not specialty insurance for one particular issue.

On another note, I've never known someone who says I wish I didn't have insurance but I've known plenty of people who say I wish I did have insurance.

FWW gave a statistic that 31,400 table saw injuries are reported every year. Take out the types of people that I listed and what would the odds be for those of us that are left?

To me, buying a SS is like buying insurance. If I am healthy, don't smoke, eat right, no family history, and exercise regularly, etc. I have a better chance of not having a heart attack. Would I go out and buy extra health insurance policies just in case I have a heart attack?

I am not saying that I "couldn't" be injured on a tablesaw, but think that the chances are minimal.

[David Prince]

I agree that a person should buy insurance. I would be talking about buying additional insurance towards a particular ailment or risk that has a reduced likelihood of happening. If I have a history of traffic accidents, then I should buy extra car insurance. If I have an increased risk of heart attack, then I should up the health insurance or death policy. If I cannot run a tool without hurting myself or have a poor track history of carelessness, personal injury, lack experience or skill, then I should probably purchase all of the available gadgets, safety dodads, guards, and SS technologies.

I also do not religiously use all of my guards, but I always try to use safe practices. (I haven't used a blade guard for about 20 years) I don't want to get off-track with a guard or no-guard thread, but personally feel safer knowing and seeing exactly where the blade is.

I think there is a good chance of getting something flung into my eye, so 99% of the time I wear safety glasses. I don't think I am going to go out and buy extra eye accident insurance because hopefully my safe practice of wearing safety glasses will be enough to offset the risk.

[David Prince]

This logic is flawed. Purchasing a SS isn't like taking out additional heart attack insurance, it's the difference between having cut rate insurance and quality insurance.

I am not saying that you shouldn't purchase a SS technology. My bottom line is that there is (IMHO) a reduced risk involved for many woodworkers that do not fit the profile of the original post. Because of that, I want to have a choice whether or not I purchase a SS technology or not.

[Rod Sheridan]

I also do not religiously use all of my guards, but I always try to use safe practices. (I haven't used a blade guard for about 20 years) I don't want to get off-track with a guard or no-guard thread, but personally feel safer knowing and seeing exactly where the blade is.

.

That's the issue though David, perceiving that the risk is less by not using the guard doesn't make it so, in fact it's the exact opposite.

So you are a person who could benefit greatly by buying the SS technology.

Couple my absolute use of guards with the fact that I now use a Euro slider, and a stock feeder when practicle or required for safety and I wouldn't benefit much from the SS features.

Regards, Rod.

[George Bregar]

I didn't want to get off-track on the recent SS thread and mandates for safety, so I thought I would post a new thread and pose a question.

I personally think the smaller benchtop saws are dangerous.

I personally think that some people are naturally careless.

I personally think that some people are more accident-prone.

I personally think that some people try to use power tools that don't know what they are doing.

I personally think that some people aren't very mechanical and should stay away from any and all tools.

I personally think that some people continue to use dull blades and force wood through it just to "get one more cut out of the blade". (or they don't know they have a dull blade)

I personally think that some people neglect regular maintenance on their tools.

I personally think that some people attempt to make a saw do something it shouldn't (like using a miter gauge and a ripfence at the same time).

Given these opinions, I think there is a need for SS safety features. BUT, if you take away all of the above pre-existing conditions, how many table saw accidents happen to those folks that do not fit into the above catagories?

I'm not sure how this thread is anyway different than the recent one, that is now over 100 posts, and all the past SS "Good or bad" threads, but to answer your one and only question: Some. Except with the SawStop. Then the answer is: to this point in regard to being seriously injured by the blade, with or WITHOUT all the pre-existing conditions: [B]None. But then again, that's pretty obvious at this point, right?

(Feel free to add observations that I may have missed)

I personally do not feel that I fit into any of the above catagories and want to have a choice whether I chose to purchase a safety feature on my saw or not.

Observation: This really wasn't about "Tablesaw accidents question" at all. It's about "I don't think a SawStop is necessary for me and I shouldn't have to have one." Got it.

[Frank Drew]

how many table saw accidents happen to those folks that do not fit into the above catagories?

Well, some at least.

My first table saw was a Powermatic with a 1" arbor; I bought a blade from a local saw shop and they rebored the arbor hole from 5/8" to 1". The first time I used the blade it started vibrating during a cut, which caused a kick-back that knocked one of my fingers into the blade. Nothing too serious but I did need stitches.

I didn't know at the time, and neither did the saw shop, that any time you change the plate on a saw blade, such as by reboring, you have to retension it, to get it back into balance. The guy at the shop told me that they'd rotated the blade by hand and it had no runout, but of course the true test would have been at working speed, and that was when the harmonics of the out-of-balance blade created problems.

I agree, though, with the general proposition that human error, rather than equipment, is the cause of most accidents.

[Ryan Hellmer]

I don't see the issue with additional safety equipment. Is this a reiteration of the American rugged individualist? Saws would be safer (not free from danger) with the technology, so why shouldn't it be added. Have you ever heard of someone going into a car dealership and asking for the one without seatbelts, or airbags, or ABS, or traction control? Do these add to the cost of all vehicles? Yes. Do they occassionally fail? Yes. Are cars safer (not free from danger) with the technology? Yes. I think all this bantering is pretty silly. The sooner other manufacturers offer the technology the better and the faster pricing will come in line. Until then people will still buy less safe PM's, Uni's, and General's for substantially the same money.