Crazy idea to get 220V to the garage?

[Silas Smith]

Tell me if this is stupid. I priced out what it would take to run 220V to my garage and it comes to about $1000. For the same money, I could get a generator that has a 220 outlet. Since I really only need it right now for my shaper and I'm not sure I will be in the house in two years, is this a good way to go? I figure that for the limited time I will use the shaper, this will do and I will also get a new generator out of the deal.

[Chris Padilla]

Silas,

Why will it cost you 1k to pipe in 240 V? What do you need to go through to get it? Mostly curious. It is hard to say if you will recoup your costs of 1k by adding in 240 V...depends on the buyer.

How about this silly idea: run a really long cord from your 240 V dryer or stove outlet (or wherever you have 240 V access)! Depending on the run length, #10 should be good enough but #8 might be warranted.

[Dan Cameron]

Why not get a 110/220 step up transformer?

[John Shuk]

That seems awfully expensive. It is pretty easy to run. You could even Place the wire if you wanted to an have the electrician do the hook up in the panel. This is a tough call. it just doesn't seem like a fair price. I'd ask around a bit more.

[Silas Smith]

Why will it cost you 1k to pipe in 240 V? What do you need to go through to get it? Mostly curious. It is hard to say if you will recoup your costs of 1k by adding in 240 V...depends on the buyer.

Chris, unfortunately, the breaker is on the other side of the house and it is a two story. There needs to be over 100 ft. run just to get to the garage. By the time the sub is put in and everything, I'm looking at about $700 in parts and I have an electrician friend who would charge $300 labor. I have considered the dryer extension cord, but then I wouldn't get a new generator

Dan, what is a step up transformer?

[Kevin Arceneaux]

Silas - get the generator. Florida got it last year, could be this year for us in the Western Gulf. Then you will be glad you have one. Plus, it is also a extra to use on SWMBO to get one.

[Rob Russell]

Silas,

You could run outside and direct bury 6/3 UF. At the local big box it's under $1.50/ft. Add schedule 80 pvc sleeves, LB for the 90 degree bends into the house, etc. and a panel and you're still under $500 in materials. You'd have to dig, though.

Another option is through your basement to the other side of the house, up and out.

A transformer takes an input voltage and either step-ups to a higher voltage or steps-down to a lower voltage. Unfortunately, nothing is for free. You'd need at least double the current capacity at 120v to feed your 240v shaper. I doubt you have a 120v circuit rated for that sort of current draw, because there are also losses to heat.

Rob

[Rob Blaustein]

Silas,
I'm putting a shop in my small basement (11 x 22) and discussed with my electrician the costs of just a running one or two 220V lines from my main panel vs putting in a 100 amp subpanel. He convinced me to put in a subpanel, saying it wouldn't be that much more in the long run. Unfortunately I didn't ask for a quote. It ended up costing, after parts and labor ($90/hr combined for him and an assistant) $1500 to install that subpanel along with two 220V NEMA twist style outlets and several 110 outlets! I almost, if you'll pardon the pun, blew a fuse. So I feel your pain. That said, I'm glad I have the flexibility there now.
Rob

[Chris Padilla]

Kevin has a good point about the generator. For the expected short term you expect to be in the house, I'd have to say that spending 1k to add this might not be worth it but it is tough to say.

Rob's subpanel addition is $500 more painful than your 240 V outlet. I think the subpanel is the way to go...you can more easily branch out from the sub-panel yourself (most likely) and perhaps save a bit there.

Interesting decision no matter how you look at it!

Best of luck

[Joe Mioux]

Hi Silas

I have thought about the generator option also. I have a 15K generator which mostly sets around collecting dust. The one thing that I do not like about the generator is that it is loud. I have a 25 hp Kohler engine. If you go that route try to find an engine that is quiet running.

JOe

[Jonathan Shaw]

I'm in the process of running a subpanel for my house right now. It sounds like it's similar to yours -- 2 story house with the garage on the opposite corner from the main panel. It is 85' away, including going up and through the patio roof to get to the garage.

I'm trying to do this work myself. In fact, I didn't even get any quotes. I'm wondering if I should have, as it turns out the parts are all pretty expensive. According to Quicken, I've spent about $590 so far. This includes ALL of the parts, including lesser expensive items like screws or bolts, track lights, outlets, breakers... So far, I've completed running EMT conduit from the main panel, back through the block wall, to the patio, up and over the patio, and into the garage. I've got two 4-gauge, a 6-gauge, and an 8-gauge wire in that conduit, with a 70A circuit breaker in the main panel. I've mounted the subpanel into the wall in the garage, and just need to drill a hole through the attic into the wall to run the wire down to the panel.

All of this labor has turned out to be much more difficult than I ever would have expected! First, I was trying to run all that wiring through a 3/4" EMT pipe. That's way too small... I gouged a lot of the insulation in the process. I used electrical tape to repair it -- hopefully that is ok. I got it to work with 1" EMT conduit, but it was still tough work, especially on the turns. It would have been much easier if I had begged for a friend to help. My current problem is getting through the attic ceiling into the wall. There are multiple layers of wood to drill through, and the attic is difficult to work in due to a very low incline for the roof.

By the way -- I just received my table saw through Amazon last week. It's a Powermatic 64. I used the saw to cut some plywood for mounting the load center into the wall in the garage... About the 5th time that I turned the saw on, the breaker tripped. So, I am definitely looking forward to getting my new subpanel and related wiring complete! I'd love to be able to run a dust collector and air filter when using the tools, for example. And to put in an air conditioner, so I can work in the garage when summer comes around. (I already bought insulation for the attic -- Home Depot is running a really good rebate promotion on that fiberglass insulation through 1/30/05.)

I don't have a basement or crawl space between the 1st and 2nd floor. And burying the wire outside instead of using EMT was not an option in my mind. My whole lot is full of "caliche," which seems like it is harder than concrete. I had to use a pick axe (over several weekends!) to dig the trenches for my irrigation system! Electrical wiring must be buried significantly farther than the irrigation lines, so there was no way I'd try that here in the Phoenix area.

[Brad Olson]

Wiring a sub-panel isn't that hard. Just make sure you spend A LOT of time reading up on codes and the proper way to do it. Hire an electricion for 1 hr to inspect it and you are set to go.

I am running a sub to my garage with 7 circuits with lighting and total materials are $400 (40 total receptacles and 10 light boxes). Most of the cost of the feeder cable (75' 6/3) to the sub panel.

What you save in money WILL BE SPENT READING AND LEARNING. I probably spent 30 hrs. versing my self on the 1999 NEC and asking questions and planning. The good thing is that the wiring quality in my garage surpases code requirements and uses the best possible practices that are often skipped by electricians.

If you are doing a much simpler install than I did you should easily be able to add a few outlets from a sub for around $250 or so. If you plan properly, you can easily add more circuits and receptacles as needed.

[Ray Moser]

In your situation, a generator might be a good temporary solution. We've had up to 45 hr outages with our Ohio Edison service and I'm grateful that I have a source of power for heat, lights and water (we're on a well). Be careful what brand of generator you get. I went to Sam's Club and bought a 5kw Coleman with a Tecunseh engine. Boy is it ever loud. I've stood within 20 ft of generators with Honda engines and they practically whisper. The Coleman does the job but if I had it to do over again, I would spend the money on something with a less noisy engine.

[Rob Russell]

Jonathan,

I would have run 1 1/4" EMT just to give more pull room. Did you use lots of pull lube? More importantly, did you include pull points at least every 360 degrees? That is a code requirement (358.62).

Also, why did you downsize the grounded (neutral) conductor to #6? I know of code sections that allow you to downsize the grounding (equipment grounding conductor) from the current-carrying conductors, but I'm not aware of a code section that would let you downsize the grounded (neutral) conductor in a feeder.

Rob

[Chris Padilla]

Jonathan,

I have the same questions as Mr. Russell. It doesn't sound "right" to have downsized your white wire (neutral); it should be the same size as your two hots (black and red). However, you can run a smaller EGC (green or bare) wire so that part sounds fine to me.

FWIW, the feeder from my main panel to the house sub-panel is Aluminum #4 and it is protected by a 100 A breaker. This must have met code back in 1974 when my house was built but I dunno. In my garage rehab, I offloaded a few circuits from the house sub just to ease my mind a bit. I might even replace that 100 A breaker with something smaller if I find a good deal one of these days....