Sick of Waterstones

[tico vogt]

I prefer to hone flat plane blades and bench chisels with micro abrasive paper using soapy water. No swarf, quick, clean, and highly polished results:

[David Weaver]

Blew the TOS right out of the water with that one.

[William Allen]

I subscribe to the George Wilson / David Weaver hybrid sharpening method! DMT greeen diamond, Spyrco med ceramic, Spryco extra fine white, all dry or with a small spritz of water, then I go to the David Weaver 12,000 waterstone with a spritz of water, then back to the George Wilson SimiChrome on a leather strop. Of course there is the Tormek hollow grind first and no honing guide.
This is a realativly clean and mess free way to go although I have sink with hot and cold water in my shop so I wash all my stones before I quit.

I perform a variation of this -- DMT red (if needed), DMT green, WoodRiver fine ceramic (mineral spirits for lubrication). I'll be picking up a Spyderco extra fine white. That seems to serve my purpose.

BTW I use the Veritas MK 2 sharpening jig and love it.

[Derek Cohen]

As Pam and David have noted, the Shapton ceramic waterstones require the least water - no soaking and just a spritz before use.

You can take this a step further. The Shaptons still load up when used with plain water. However, if you add a little soap to the water, not only will this keep the stones lubricated and clean, but you can use less water and it will keep your hands clean as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tristan Williams]

I invested in a full set of DMT DiaSharp 8x3" stones - the metal ones, not the plastic ones. I'm very pleased with them - mess is minimal, and they cut FAST. I think I might get a superfine ceramic and/or a strop for extreme honing at some point in the future, as the Extra Extra Fine DiaSharp is "only" 8000 grit.

[David Weaver]

i think it's about a 3 micron diamond size. Until the smarts wear off of the diamonds, it really does do a different thing to the edge than does a 3 micron size abrasive that isn't quite as harsh.

Whether or not that's noticeable, I don't know, but it's good to be aware of how the different abrasives cut. Diamond definitely cut deeper than most other abrasives, ceramic aluminas (i hope i got that right) are probably next in line in the depth of the grooves. What that amounts to is that you do not want to skip a big step and go from a diamond coarse step to a fine oil stone step - it'll take a long time to run the deep grooves out of the metal.

I wouldn't be surprised if you find that a ceramic stone that either allows mud or some loading creates a finer edge than 3 micron diamonds.

At the 1/2 micron level, I'm convinced that honing compounds leave a finer edge than diamonds, which cut like mad. At the same time, a 1/2 micron diamond edge is still really really fine. Plus, the fact that the compound may be more loosely graded (and have some finer particles) than the diamonds could also have an impact.

The trouble with all of these things, and why most people give fairly subjective responses like mine is that even if you have a microscope, you are really fighting to see what's going on at that level, even with magnification. At some point, scratches get finer than light -I don't know what that point is, but it can't be far away.

But it's my opinion that a slower cutting edge will not cut so aggressively and will leave a finer edge grit size for grit size. I know a lot of the razor guys sure prefer a wide slow cutting abrasive until the grits are really tiny tiny in fineness.

[Eddie Darby]

Go with Scary Sharp, and just toss the old sandpaper sheets away.

[Jim Barrett]

Get some Shapton stones and be done with it...use them and forget it....end of story!

Jim

[Mike Davis NC]

At some point, scratches get finer than light -I don't know what that point is, but it can't be far away.

We used optical flats to measure flatness of metal surfaces in machining school. It is around 12 millionths of an inch. One Micron = 39 millionths of an inch so 3 micron is about 10 times the interference interval of the wavelength used to measure flatness.


How to Measure Flatness with Optical Flats by Van Keuren


Introduction

The easiest and best way to test the flatness of a flat lapped or polished surface is with an optical
flat. Such surfaces are found on micrometers, measuring machines, gage blocks, snap gages, ring
seals, valve seats and precision flat lapped parts.

The surface must be sufficiently finished to reflect light; ordinary ground surfaces are too
irregular to show light wave interference bands. However, unless the material is extremely soft
or porous, a few rubs on a flat lap will smooth off the top of the grinding ridges and enable bands
to be seen in monochromatic light.

The Phenomenon of Interference Bands

When there is an extremely thin wedge between two flat surfaces a series of interference bands
or fringes appear. The bands occur at right angles to the slope of the wedge. They represent
intervals of approximately 11.57 millionths of an inch (293.8 nanometers) from the surface being
tested to the optical flat when a monochromatic light of 23.13 millionths (587.6 nm) wave length
is used.

The Van Keuren series of helium monochromatic light sources provide a highly diffused light of
this wave length. Dark bands occur because light reflections from the two surfaces which form
the wedge interfere with each other where the thickness of the wedge is one half or multiples of
one half the wave length of the light. The parallel bands thus form at zones where the wedge
thickness changes by 1/2 wave length. Between each pair of dark bands the reflections reinforce
each other and produce bright bands. When viewed perpendicularly in helium light, the dark
bends are located where the air wedge thickness changes by equal intervals of .00001157" (293.8
nm).

[Tony Zaffuto]

Now that I'm using hand tools almost exclusively, I'm getting frustrated with my waterstones. I bought waterstones originally because all the magazines said so. When using a router to cut a mortise, and then squaring up the ends with a chisel, I was happy with using waterstones. The mess and maintenance was not a big deal. Now that I'm using hand tools, again, almost exclusively, I'm finding the mess and maintenance to be a nuissance.

I'm considering oil stones. I've never used an oil stone, but they seem to be a little cleaner and they need less maintenance. Is this true? Have you switched to oil stones? Am I expecting too much from the sharpening routine? I want sharpening to be as clean and easy as possible. I've spent a lot of time learning to freehand honing. I bought a 6" bench grinder to get the hollow ground. I use my honing guides less and less.

Can you help me with this?

I'm answering without reading the answers you already got, so I don't stray! I started with an old Carborundum stone many, many years ago (35 years or better). Then a dozen years ago I started tried better stones, ranging from india (oil) to waterstones and then to "scarysharp". For the past half dozen years, I've been using oilstones and stropping for honing. If I'm removing a nick or working on a very bad blade, I start on a slow speed grinder with a Norton 3X 60 grit to hollow grind. For oilstones, I used a vintage washita and then a translucent arkansas, followed by a strop. I get blades that easily shave your arm hairs.

Now, the caveat: my blades are mainly O1, with a few A2.

Now the advice: pick a sharpening method and stay with it. A

[Mike Davis NC]

I also started with oil stones about 40 years ago. Used them until I could afford diamond plates. Then discovered scary sharp. And still use diamond plates for basic sharpening.

A full set of 3x8 DMT plates will cost close to $500. A full set of 3-M sand paper will cost less than $10. The DMT will last 30 years for the home hobbyist, maybe 5-10 for a professional who sharpens several times every day. The sandpaper could last a day or a year. Either will get a blade sharp and mirror finished in a few minutes. They will work dry or with a little water. They both stay flat. I can't see any practical advantage for a production minded wood worker to polish cutting tools beyond 2500 grit. I don't know why anyone would continue to use waterstones.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I also started with oil stones about 40 years ago. Used them until I could afford diamond plates. Then discovered scary sharp. And still use diamond plates for basic sharpening.

A full set of 3x8 DMT plates will cost close to $500. A full set of 3-M sand paper will cost less than $10. The DMT will last 30 years for the home hobbyist, maybe 5-10 for a professional who sharpens several times every day. The sandpaper could last a day or a year. Either will get a blade sharp and mirror finished in a few minutes. They will work dry or with a little water. They both stay flat. I can't see any practical advantage for a production minded wood worker to polish cutting tools beyond 2500 grit. I don't know why anyone would continue to use waterstones.

And here it starts (I agree with your statement concerning production minded woodworker). Do you want to be a woodworker or do you want to be a sharpening guru? If a woodworker, find a system you like and stick with it until it is second nature the steps you go through. If a sharpening guru, start buying all kinds of stones, a loupe or maybe a scanning electron microscope. Start experimenting with all kinds of steels so you can buy more stones and so on.

I'd love to see this question posed in FWW or PWW to a dozen of the best living woodworkers to hear their methods. Guys like Allan Breed, Garret Hack etc. Include a Mack Headley to see how he does it at Colonial Williamsburg.

[Maurice Ungaro]

It's not neander, but I got a used LV Mk II power sharpener, and have never looked back. FWIW.

[David Weaver]

Sharpening with powered tools is fair game.

I think I have four tools with plugs that I use to sharpen and grind metal things (tormek, dry grinder and two belt sanders)

I only have one tool that I use for woodworking that gets plugged in regularly (a bandsaw), well, maybe two if you count a spray setup.

I am sometimes the sharpening tinkerer type that tony refers to.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I don't know why anyone would continue to use waterstones.

There are any number of reasons. I liked your message a lot until I hit the above line.

Pam