FYI: Andrew Lunn Exits the Sawmaking Business

[Andrae Covington]

As reported by the Schwarz on his PW blog. So far no details on why, but he says Andrew is offering to pass open orders to Ed Paik at Medallion Toolworks.

I hesitated a little to post this as I recall a thread a while back where someone was quite unhappy with their experience trying to get an Eccentric Toolworks saw. The thread turned into such a volcano that it was eventually locked down. I really hope to not have a repeat... I just thought those who read SMC but not Schwarz would like to know.

[David Weaver]

This whole thing was sort of like a movie where you know the ending, you just don't know how long the movie is. Not everyone is cut out to make tools, it's production work at some scale (speed counts) no matter how customized (and the last versions weren't very customized compared to what any other maker would do).

Don't like seeing someone taking a shot at Mike W in the comments on the PW blog, and it would be nice if Chris made mention that Mike W, who has always gone above and beyond in the quality you get for the price, has been working through issues that none of us would want to deal with.

I don't know ed paik or what he does (as in how custom - though I've never heard a bad thing about him), but if I was spending "lunn money" on saws, I'd have to give klaus and pedder a look, too. Actually, if I were a saw buyer instead of a kit assembler and old saw refurbisher, klaus and pedder would've had my order to begin with.

[george wilson]

Well,I did enjoy the video about the crow and kitten on the Schwarz site,but I don't think he needed to call anyone who thought the saws too expensive a grumpy type. It wasn't the price as much as the ornamentation as far as I was concerned. I might make a few grumpy men myself if I was to get into saw making . I don't plan to,though!!! So far,my retirement money is doing fine.

I'd go for the Klaus and Pedder saw myself. And,I predict that they can't keep up the level of extreme perfection in a commercial product,so I advise others to order now before the makers get worn down. They must spend a LOT of time on those handles.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Being a tool maker at anything other than doing one off or a single production run like George did for the Colonial Williamsburg tools has a unique set of challenges. In those cases you are only doing the job once and don't have to produce documentation to allow you repeatability for future orders. If you do exceptional high end work with custom "frills" for each individual customer you have to charge enough not only to cover time and material, but for mock ups and concept testing in addition to your profit margin. If you do a narrow standard range of models at a high quality level the challenges become efficiency, motivation, controlling material costs, marketing and customer communication time, and keeping your quality at the high level. Customers have come to expect a high level of personal attention when they buy any hand tool other than the most common mass produced ones. Even there, expectations are often high. The folks who commit to doing the work full time as their primary income have to be organized, efficient, and be willing to invest a lot of time doing marketing tasks and answering customer questions. This is difficult unless you are a "people person" and even if you are, at times it can become an onerous task and very discouraging. Quite often the skilled craftsperson has no concept of the vast myriad of things that make up running a successful business and the huge amount of time they take. Finally, folks often become disappointed and disillusioned with the level of income they are left with after expenses and taxes. Not just in toolmaking, but in general business, over 50% of small businesses fail within 5 years.

I will freely admit that at times I have become discouraged and I only make tools part time and as a way of supporting my tool and woodworking addiction. Most of the time it is fun, but occasionally when you need to meet a comittment and have other things you'd rather be doing it can become a drag. Even as a part time venture and after 6 years in business, you have to put the customer first if you wish to stay in business. I suspect that Andrew Lunn has come to the conclusion that the rewards do not outweigh the hassles and the time and effort expended. Only he knows if that is the right decision for him.

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

Just throwing my two cents in here...


When you buy tools from the various individual makers - be it saws, planes, chisels, marking instruments - you aren't really buying just a tool. You're buying into a philosophy, and supporting a craftsman (craftsperson?). The prices really aren't unreasonable at all. Just as you can't compare an Ikea chair to a Dunbar chair - the nature of the "value" of the purchase changes when you consider custom tools.

Start by looking at what else you buy for the same amount of money. The example I always like to use is options on cars. $300 bucks for plastic trim....$1200 bucks for aluminum rims.... $350 bucks for an iPod connection ... no matter what it is, most people only use it for what....3-8 years??? How about electronics - phones, TV's, computers.... all landfill (or hopefully recycled) after as little as 1 or 2 years. Yet - many of us readily accept paying hundreds or thousands of dollars on a regular basis for these virtually disposable items. How about entertainment? A few hundred dollars for a football or hockey game? Can you equate the three hours enjoyment (unfilled promise, if you're a Leafs fan...) to a lifetime of use and enjoyment of a good tool?

Most good tools will last not only your lifetime... but much longer. On top of that - they will retain their value. In fact - many of them could appreciate in value, though that's no reason to buy tools...

When you buy from a craftsman, you're paying for much more than just the materials, - it's the time, accumulated experience, and the investment they've made to get where they are. And - these folks could virtually all be better off doing something else - if they didn't have a reason for making tools in the first place. Since most craftsmen are motivated by something other than financial return, there is a tendency to underprice their work - especially early in their craft. Of course - this helps to build clientele and reputation, but if it's to become more than a hobby - the pricing eventually has to reach the level where the activity is sustainable.... and that's where many fail. It can be tough to turn something you really enjoy doing, into something you do to support yourself financially...

It's a good thing for our industry that there are craftspeople producing custom tools - they are very complementary to businesses like ours. By nature - they are not competitive with us (or us with them) as a wide range of different choices is good for everyone.

Price only stings once. High priced products ensure you carefully consider whether you need the product or not. Custom products can give a lifetime of satisfaction and utility if you can get what you want. And that doesn't seem so expensive after all....

Cheers -

Rob
(who has 5 of Ed's saws, bought three years ago for what are now embarassingly low prices....)

[john brenton]

Andrew Lunn looks like a young guy who had a dream, followed it, and it's just not working out. I certainly suck at everything and am not putting anyone down, but it appears that his skills are just not meeting his vision at this point. The good thing is that like I said, he seems young enough that he might back off of the "whimsical" designs that take so much time and effort and find that niche where his work meets the market in a way that works for him and the potential buyer.

Not to harp on it or be critical, but I just don't see his designs being refined enough to meet the criteria that inspire the coveting that a Hotley plane does. Sometimes doing really nice work isn't enough...sometimes doing less gives you a bigger profit margin and the guy that pours his heart and soul into it loses in the end.

[george wilson]

I agree with you,John,about the whimsical designs.

[john brenton]

I got my first experience with a similar market some time ago when I started importing musical instruments from South America. I really wanted to offer the top quality stuff...I was, and am, passionate about those instruments and wanted the fine craftsmanship. But, I would pay $200 plus shipping, tons of nail biting, lots of phone calls to the craftsman, and I sell the thing for $300 once the person looking for that top quality sees it. On the flip side, I could call an artisan and buy whatever mid-level stock he has on hand for $100 a piece and sell it for $200 QUICKLY. Either way, the profit is $100, but one way results in a whole lot of stress and anxiety.

The finest pieces I ever got did go quickly and were worth it, but a "custom made" instrument that wasn't spectacular was a waste of my time and effort.

I agree with you,John,about the whimsical designs.

[Dave Diaman]

Sorry to hear Andrew is going out of business. I don’t personally own one of his saws but have used them and they are really nice saws. For anyone thinking about the other makers I will vouch for the quality of both Ed (Medallion) and Klaus and Pedder’s saws. I own one of Ed’s saws and three saws form Klaus and Pedder and yes I know I have a problem. Both make fantastic saws with the two makers building slightly different styles. At any rate if you want a custom saw you can’t go wrong with either IMHO.

[george wilson]

I understand where Dave is coming from. I would hate to get stuck in a forever ongoing production of the same items. I'd be pretty rich by now if I didn't mind that sort of thing. Just am too curious about doing many things,and being creative to do production work,though I have everything needed to get into such work. I have supported my wife's jewelry making business with the needed punches and dies,and some master models,and help with technical problems. She will take something I have done,or she has done,in a master model, and make 10,000 of them.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I got my first experience with a similar market some time ago when I started importing musical instruments from South America. I really wanted to offer the top quality stuff...I was, and am, passionate about those instruments and wanted the fine craftsmanship. But, I would pay $200 plus shipping, tons of nail biting, lots of phone calls to the craftsman, and I sell the thing for $300 once the person looking for that top quality sees it. On the flip side, I could call an artisan and buy whatever mid-level stock he has on hand for $100 a piece and sell it for $200 QUICKLY. Either way, the profit is $100, but one way results in a whole lot of stress and anxiety.

The finest pieces I ever got did go quickly and were worth it, but a "custom made" instrument that wasn't spectacular was a waste of my time and effort.

Plus your ROI on the off-the-shelf models is 33% higher. One thing you might have done/could do would be to allow your customers to recognize that the custom instruments are indeed custom, thus increasing prices more than 50% and allowing your to take orders/deposits before ordering from your suppliers.

Pam

[john brenton]

It depends on the ultimate goal. At first I wanted to import fine quality, then I wanted to make money. The profit margin was the same, but a lot more product could be moved with the intermediate quality with a lot less headache. The other thing is that when you go up in quality it appeals to a more demanding group that will pick up any imperfection. I too would pick up on the imperfections and lose money by not passing the dissapointment onto the buyer.

Edit: "allowing your to take orders/deposits before ordering from your suppliers." And that is where problems like the one mentioned here occurs. I would never take someone's money before having the item...it's a recipe for disaster. I would only sell an item after I was able to physically inspect the item myself, and know that the only thing the buyer had to wait on was ME. I would ship 2 day air on the day I received the payment. Having to wait for an item you've already paid for is a frustrating experience, even if you personally know the "dealer". Only knowing the person through email is awful. In the end I got ripped for $500 by a Bolivian bum and I called it quits.

Plus your ROI on the off-the-shelf models is 33% higher. One thing you might have done/could do would be to allow your customers to recognize that the custom instruments are indeed custom, thus increasing prices more than 50% and allowing your to take orders/deposits before ordering from your suppliers.

Pam

[Richard Darjes]

Rob:

I happened to have Ed make me a tennon saw at the same time he was making your saws. He told me he used wood from the same piece of carmelized bird's eye maple for both your five and my one saw. He does great work! I also have one of his early dovetail saws.

I think you and Dave Anderson have made excellent points about the modern custom tool makers. I am always sad to hear about someone who has been doing something they love, only to have the repetition and time pressure turn it into something they don't want to do anymore. That last statement may not appy to Andrew Lunn, I just have seen it happen in other people in other contexts.

Rick in Oakville (Canada)

[Derek Cohen]

I'm sorry to see Andrew go. I do not think it is about money, although it would be hard to make the kind of income worthy of his talent in a specialised market. I believe that he simply no longer felt a challenge or the satisfaction of producing world class handsaws. When he first raised his prices some years ago and there was an outcry in this regard, I wrote championing his decision to do so. I agree with Rob that custom toolmakers underprice themselves, and in the long term this will cause them to lose heart if they do not do, as Andrew did, declare what they believe their time is worth. Rob equates prices of tools to prices of other luxury goods. That is his source of reference. Mine is consulting in private practice, and what I earn for an hour of problem solving. Then I go out and build tools, such as marking knives or shooting boards, and the time/price ratio is ludicrous. I do not/could not do it for money. I will do it for friends.

I have one of Andrew's saws and it gets used frequently.

Andrew, if you are reading any of this I wish you well. I recall that you trained as a paramedic and that you were keeping up with your registration. Perhaps this is where you are headed? All the best.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[George Beck]

I have closely followed this story and I have hesitated to comment because I am the unhappy customer mentioned in the post. I am still unhappy about it to tell you the truth. I feel very wronged. I really wanted one of Andrew's saws. Oh well, at least it led me to Klauss and Pedder who have me beautiful saws. My only comment on this is I must say I am really put off by Popular Woodworking's comments. I guess if one expects someone to honor a promise after they said they would makes me a "internet crank" and an unthoughtful and unkind trivial person. I don't think quality of product or price had anything to do with this business failure. I don't think it was grumpy miserly woodworkers either. Well past is past and I dared to question. Anyway I still think the following;
1) Andrew is a talented artist and made a wonderful saw.
2) I wish Andrew well in whatever he wants to attempt next.
3) I think people should do what they say they were going to do
4) I don't think good woodworkers who question or raise doubts are cranky or miserly or trivial.
5) The fact remains that good people who were promised and ordered saws did not get them at the agreed upon terms.

End of story.