Civil War

[Dave Anderson NH]

We will tolerate no further mention or discussion of abortion. Any further mention in any post will have the complete post deleted immediately without any attempt by the moderator staff to do a partial edit.

This is a topic which descends into both politics and religion and as such is not allowed on SMC. It also is one of the most contentious issues in America today.

I will be extremely blunt. Anyone who violates this will immediately lose their posting priveleges and will be reduced to guest status.

[John Pratt]

My apologies for the comparison. as stated in the caveat, it was not my intention to delve into the that topic. I probably should have used a better simile.

[Mike Henderson]

I'll add my apologies, also. I should not have responded - I should have just let it go. Sorry.

Mike

[Gary Hodgin]

I don't know how much life is left in this thread, but at this point has anyone changed his/her mind about the underlying cause of the war? I'm not referring to the reinforcement of an opinion, but rather a directional change. I've learned some things I didn't know, but I haven't changed my mind about anything. I'd be surprised if anyone had a change of mind.

In fact, I think it's extremely rare than anyone changes an opinion after a debate on a controversial issue (sawstop technology requirements, pins versus tails, sand paper versus water stones, SEC football dominance, etc...). The only cases I can think of involve differences than can be resolved with numbers that are acceptable, like who had the highest career batting average Stan Musial or Ted Williams.

[Mike Henderson]

In fact, I think it's extremely rare than anyone changes an opinion after a debate on a controversial issue (sawstop technology requirements, pins versus tails, sand paper versus water stones, SEC football dominance, etc...). The only cases I can think of involve differences than can be resolved with numbers that are acceptable, like who had the highest career batting average Stan Musial or Ted Williams.

I don't know about this issue, but I've changed my opinion in the past about an issue after talking with someone about it. In several instances, the other person brought up points that I hadn't thought of, and those points made sense. I will point out that these conversations were not screaming matches but quiet discussions where the other person listened to my questions and demonstrated that s/he had really thought the issue through - and had considered things I had not thought of. Usually, I didn't change my mind immediately but over the next few days, after mulling the issue over, I came to realize that the other person's position made more sense than my earlier opinion.

Mike

[I think we, as citizens, do not discuss our differences with others enough. Even if you don't change your mind, you come to appreciate why another person holds the opinion s/he does. The problem I've sometimes encountered when trying to have a discussion with another person is that it's obvious the other person has not thought through their position - they're just parroting things they heard somewhere. If I question them about their position, they get defensive - basically take the attitude of "Don't confuse me with facts. My mind's made up."]

[Dan Forman]

I pretty much agree with Mike above. I enjoy a reasoned conversation, to learn WHY others think as they do. It may or may not change my position, but at least helps me to understand where they are coming from.

Regarding some of the assertions made in this thread, I went looking for confirmation of things that didn't seem to make sense to me, and didn't find anything that changed my mind, but at least I looked. I try to keep a relatively open mind. I loved listening to Shelby Foote in the Ken Burns Civil War documentary - though I suspect we might not have agreed on everthing, it would have been great to sit and chat with him about it for a while. RIP Shelby.

Just out of curiosity, who here has watched the entire Burns Civil War series, and has anyone read Shelby Foote's three volume work about the war?

Dan

[Gary Hodgin]

I saw the Ken Burn's series a few years ago when it first came out. He has at least a couple more series. I've seen his history of baseball also. Both were interesting and really well done.

I've never read Shelby Foote's three volume history, but I've read two of his fiction novels. Shiloh is a great read for anyone interested in the Battle of Shiloh. It's fiction, but fiction based on facts. He also gave a great interview on Brian Lamb's C-Span series, Book Notes, several years ago.

I also meet a Memphis tobacconist from whom he bought pipe tobacco for several years. Shelby lived in a nice house downtown on the bank Mississippi River during the later years of his life. The tobacconist had a couple of Shelby Foote stories. Shelby seemed a bit eccentric but very interesting (like most novelist I guess). The tobacco shop's best selling tobacco was a mixture named Shiloh, which Shelby Foote actually came up with and gave the guy permission to market under the name Shiloh.

[mickey cassiba]

This has been one of the most interesting OT threads I've read. Indeed, I've had to flip back and forth through it to keep up.
As I have no dog in this race(Paternal Grandparents came from Italy in 1930, Maternal Grandparents, from Ireland in the 1870's), I cannot comment on the validity of the issues that contributed to the war. Charlotte's family, however, were well ensconced in the Appalachia region prior to 1800, and are true Southerners. Fiercely independent, highly opinionated, and up for a good argument at the drop of a hat. Most of the ancestors of her family from that era avoided the war, preferring to continue farming and raising their families in the best way they could. They have a very concise genealogical history of the family, going back to the indentured transport from Wales, of three brothers who were bankrupted, and sent to the west.
The history is fascinating. Please note that these folks, who spread from the Carolina colonies westward were mostly hardscrabble farmers, and, aside from a few moonshiners, law abiding folks, EXCEPT, when those laws infringed upon their rights to their honest endeavors to raise their babies, and provide a better way of life than they had in England. At no point, had any of the numerous branches of her family had the means to purchase or support slaves,(nor the will, considering their beginnings here) quite a few of them were 'inducted' into the Union, and Confederate armies. The tales of 'brother against brother' are well documented in the family annals. Unfortunately for historians, these documents are considered private, and repeated attempts to purchase rights to them, for whatever purpose, have been refused.
I lived in west Tennessee for many years and did visit Shiloh. A very sad place in my opinion...so many killed and maimed! When I lived there, I worked for a land surveyor, and in the ten plus years I worked for him, I saw many small but poignant reminders of that terrible war. A graveyard here, a signpost marking a small battle there, sometimes a small berm on a creek bank, that resembled a fighting position. There are many monuments to the fallen there, both Union, and Confederate. These days, I hear folks, young and old, speaking of revolution...I pray that it never comes(at least, not in my lifetime). Surely we have evolved past the point of armed insurrection. I had the honor, or misfortune, to be involved in the mapping the area surrounding Ft. Henry on the Tennessee river. The things we found there were awe inspiring. One thing we found was a small field hospital. I knew it was a hospital, as some of the artifacts we found were bones with sawcuts, clearly visible. War is terrible, no matter the cause...but war between folk of common ancestry and ideals is unconscionable, I will now step down off of my soap box, and continue to follow this thread with great interest.

[Bryan Morgan]

Some new information on Lee's decision to join the Confederacy comes to light...

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...-his-study/?hp

Dan

Good reading! Thanks!

I think its a dirty trick of Lincoln to have troops buried on Lee's property to punish him and take his land, not being able to take it by any other legal means.

[Dan Forman]

Actually, it was the plan of Brig. General Montgomery Meigs, who considered Lee to be responsible for the deaths of so many Union troops, and wanted to literally lay the blame at his front door. More about the History of Arlington can be found here. http://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/his...ton_house.html

The condensed version: the land never really belonged to Lee, but to his wife's father - Lee and his wife were to be allowed to live there for the rest of her life, at which time the deed would go to their eldest son. It was confiscated in 1864 for non payment of taxes, and purchased for government use. The land was given back to Lee's son in 1882 after he sued for it's return, and he sold it back to the government for $150,000 in 1883.

Dan

[Dan Forman]

MIckey---Looks like some colorful history on your wife's side of the family. Most of my ancestors were relatively late arrivals to the new world, I have a call in to my sister to see if she knows of any family connections to the war. I know that one great grandfather on my dad's side, and a grandmother on my mother's side didn't arrive here until well after the war. There were no southern relatives that I'm aware of, most of them settled in Minnesota.

Dan

[mickey cassiba]

MIckey---Looks like some colorful history on your wife's side of the family. Most of my ancestors were relatively late arrivals to the new world, I have a call in to my sister to see if she knows of any family connections to the war. I know that one great grandfather on my dad's side, and a grandmother on my mother's side didn't arrive here until well after the war. There were no southern relatives that I'm aware of, most of them settled in Minnesota.

Dan

Dan, reading the family history(Charlotte's) is kind of like reading reading the old Louis L'aMour novels about the 'Sacketts'. We did trace a settlement in Idaho with the family name, but it's not been confirmed. As far as we can tell, there were no McCoys, but there are a lot of Hatfields. My family tree is pretty boring in comparison. The only thing of note that I've been able to find out is that my grandfather left Sicily around the time that the fascists started their rise to power. Many of my uncles served in the US Forces during WW2, fighting against(I can only assume), the ones that stayed behind. The Irish side of my family is darned near untraceable.They melted in pretty well. Pop's side still, for the most part, reside in the same neighborhood that my grandfather settled in.
BTW, I just read your sig line...yeah, I'm slow. A very telling statement. I hope I'm half as good as my dog thinks I am!

[Belinda Barfield]

Mickey, thanks for sharing a portion of Charlotte's family history. Your description of the family gave me a chuckle. Both sides of my family came to Georgia from North Carolina. My mother's family is just about as close to "mountain folk" as the day they left NC. I'm a combination of mountain and swamper - not a good mix! One of my ancestors, Grandpa Luck, lost a leg to the Battle of Chicamauga. Prior to that he was known as Matthew. He earned the nickname "Luck" after he survived being wounded, having the leg amputated essentially on the field, having the amputation site become infected and having more of the leg removed. According to the stories after he returned home even with a woooden leg he could still outrun anyone in the county. Grandpa Luck was not a wealthy man. While he was away the homeplace had started to fall into a state of disrepair. The roof needed to be patched so Grandpa climbed up the ladder to fix the roof. The only problem was he didn't fix the ladder before he tried to fix the roof. Just as he got to the top of the ladder two of the rungs broke and he fell to the ground. My grandmother heard all the commotion and ran to the window only to hear Grandpa say, "Dang, I broke my leg." This caused no small amount of concern in grandma as she didn't know how she would manage with grandpa laid up until his leg healed. She said, "Oh, Luck, how bad is it?" Grandpa said, "Well, it's gonna' take a little while to whittle a new one."

[Rick Potter]

Good story about Grandpa Luck, Belinda. He sure deserved the name. Gotta tell my Grandpa story.

In 1891 (yes, I am that old) my maternal grandfather was 15 years old, and worked as the nite telegraph operator in a large railroad yard. He was all alone there, in the middle of the night, and heard someone moaning. Upon checking he found that a drunk had fallen asleep on the tracks, and a railroad car being moved had somehow crushed his leg, without anyone noticing.

Grandpa somehow found a doctor, who ordered him to clear the desk in the office and they got the drunk laid out on it. The doctor sawed off what was left of the leg, and stitched it closed while Grandpa held him still.

Different times certainly.

Rick Potter

[Kent A Bathurst]

Rick:

1] what was he drinking? sounds potent. Might want to try some myself.
2] I double-dog-dare you to come up with a follow-up innocent post that initiates a conversation as interesting and widely-participated-in as this one.