Does Oneida have something to fear from Grizzly?

[JayStPeter]

One thing for sure. The mfrs are listening to us when we complain about the current DCs. Just 3 years ago, it was either a real pricey cyclone system, or a 2 bag system. The big "upgrade" was to get better bags and this is what most hobbiests had.
Now, we can get a variety of cyclones and filters that give a better solution for most budgets. I expect it will only get better for us (maybe not for Oneida and PSI who had a lock on the cyclone market a few years ago).
Now I'd like to see the machinery mfrs make the same progress. Most cabinet saws now come with dust ports. They were optional a few years ago. But, IMO, a dust port and angled cabinet bottom do not make good dust collection.
I really find myself using my Festool saw more and more simply because my table saw still requires a broom when I'm done. It wouldn't matter if I had a $10K cyclone, I'd still be sweeping up behind my Unisaw. And, the Unisaw was judged best DC in the FWW cabinet saw test last year.
I'd like to see the mfrs really work at getting table saws, jointers, planers, sanders, etc. cleaned up.
It seems like many of the new models are making progress. The SawStop, some of the new planers and Jets new 12" disc sander come to mind as significant improvements. But, much like the old school blade guards, we are all still having to accept marginal DC from the traditional equipment.

Jay

[Eddie Watkins]

All interesting comments, but if anybody is reading that can influence changes, is there any way to make DCs quieter? Noise is pollution also and my DC is the noisiest tool in my shop AND it runs most of the time. As I get older and hearing becomes more of a problem I am looking for ways to not only hear better while I am in my shop but protect my hearing as well. I realize loss of hearing is not life threatening like loss of lung capacity but it still impacts quality of life. Right now my only option is to build a closet to muffle sound which I plan on doing.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

One thing for sure. The mfrs are listening to us when we complain about the current DCs. Just 3 years ago, it was either a real pricey cyclone system, or a 2 bag system. The big "upgrade" was to get better bags and this is what most hobbiests had.
Now, we can get a variety of cyclones and filters that give a better solution for most budgets. I expect it will only get better for us (maybe not for Oneida and PSI who had a lock on the cyclone market a few years ago).
Now I'd like to see the machinery mfrs make the same progress. Most cabinet saws now come with dust ports. They were optional a few years ago. But, IMO, a dust port and angled cabinet bottom do not make good dust collection.
Jay

Jay, I am with you on this one! However, I think that it will come. Look at all of the work that many people spend on dust collection. I have spent the whole day today enhancing my dust collection system. I hate to admit it, but it's not because of my health, that is a bonus, it is because of the MESS.

As cyclones become more common in hobby shops, the consumer will look to buy tools that will maximize the cyclone's impact, I HOPE

[Frank Pellow]

...
One other thing that hasn't come up in this thread: Grizzly's offerings most certainly "threaten" in the hobbies space, especially for for the very cost conscious, no matter what their real performance turns out to be, but that's only a part of Onieda's business. They supply larger systems to professional shops, schools and industry and ONLY do dust collection. The 2-3hp systems that we all covet pale in comparison to the things going into those places. Grizzly, PSI, and Woodsucker don't play there at all. There is a different value proposition to that kind of business and those customers are not as price sensitive as the hobbyist woodworker is.

I had forgotten about that Jim. Thanks for reminding us.

Do you have any idea of the percentage breakdown of Oneida sales between the "hobby" market and the "professional/industry" market?

I certainly want Oneida to survive and prosper (preferably with somewhat lower prices), but I think they really goofed in responding to Grizzly the way that they did

[Frank Pellow]

All interesting comments, but if anybody is reading that can influence changes, is there any way to make DCs quieter? Noise is pollution also and my DC is the noisiest tool in my shop AND it runs most of the time. As I get older and hearing becomes more of a problem I am looking for ways to not only hear better while I am in my shop but protect my hearing as well. I realize loss of hearing is not life threatening like loss of lung capacity but it still impacts quality of life. Right now my only option is to build a closet to muffle sound which I plan on doing.

I am really with you on this requirement Eddie. I too, am buiding a closet around my Oneida (2hp Commercial) unit. The thing is LOUD!

[Jim Becker]

Do you have any idea of the percentage breakdown of Oneida sales between the "hobby" market and the "professional/industry" market?

No, I don't. But I've seen some of the larger systems and they are awe-inspiring! The local community college put in one two years ago (my local AAW turning chapter meets there) and it it a huge system with the cyclone and blower outdoors with the filters (4 huge cartridges haning from a plenum mounted to the ceiling) back in the shop. There was a bigger one at the Oneida building when I visited...I believe, if I'm remembering correctly, it was being custom assembled to test something new in the design.

I certainly want Oneida to survive and prosper (preferably with somewhat lower prices), but I think they really goofed in responding to Grizzly the way that they did

In retrospect after thinking about it, I agree. It's the old addage..."It's not what you say, but how you say it that counts."

[Jim Becker]

I am really with you on this requirement Eddie. I too, am buiding a closet around my Oneida (2hp Commercial) unit. The thing is LOUD!

The closet works wonders. When my unit is "on", but all gates are closed, it's really quiet. The actual noise while collecting varies with the tool and hood design, however...the J/P combo is the loudest due to the way the air rushes through a narrow space across the cutter head.

My compressor is pretty much nearly inaudible now, too, since it's co-located in the same closet. The combination of drywall on the outside, fiberglass insulation between the studs and pegboard on the inside mounted with the rough surface to the noise has worked wonderfully. The air return is not a straight path, either...it uses a joist bay and bends back before dumping into the shop.

[Brian Austin]

I sure wouldn't trust anything Wood magazine ever reports! It's not like they are a trusted company when it comes to showing the real winner. They show a huge bias just as you or I would. On top of that, they take dollars from these companies, making any test, an opinion. I will never trust any of these magazines to pick where my monies go!

I don't understand why you want Wood to do a test too compare the two.

I've heard this a number of times but have yet to see any proof of it. Care to share any proof?

[Jim Becker]

I've heard this a number of times but have yet to see any proof of it.

I'm confident that WOOD Magazine and most of the others are pretty much on the up-and-up when it comes to reviews despite the common feeling that a "good review" is tied to advertising revenue. For WOOD, the process is completely isolated from the rest of the magazine operation and happens on an entirely different time cycle from the ad sales...reviews are done nearly 6 months before you see them in print. In many cases, independent reviewers do them or participate as part of the team. I've actually seen one review in progress when I was visiting the magazine office a couple years ago and was really struck by the work they do to keep things "even" while evaluating things. This was a drill press feature...and all those things were lined up like soldiers during the testing! Dave generally does a pretty good job with this and I know him well enough to understand that he hates dishonesty.

That's not to say that the world is perfect...there will always be "someone" who strays whether it be in sports or tool reviews. But I think that is the exception, rather than the rule.

Relative to this thread, the cyclone testing in the December 2003 issue of WOOD was pretty well done. I would like to see the new Grizzly cyclone(s) put through exactly the same rigor by the same people and see where those machines would plot out as compared to those already tested.

[Jim O'Dell]

Hi all!

I'm very interested in all of this. I have decided to do the cyclone as part of my shop remodel, placing it's purchase ahead of the bandsaw I really want to get. Like everyone, I want the most bang for the buck. I'm lucky in that I have some time before my shop gets to the point that I need the cyclone to finish the interior, a long time. Right now I'm leaning toward the Clear View that uses Bill Pentz's design. I'm not 100% sold on the PTEG material, but just from the standpoint that I don't know how it will hold up over time. The metal kit that Bill sells seems a little on the light side (metal guage wise), but it is more of a known substance. I'll have mine mounted up high so that the ductwork will be in the attic. The angled input of the ClearVue will make that a little easier on my design. The fact that it's clear isn't that big a deal, since mine will be covered up by a sound deadoning closet. Also, it is set up for 6" S&D to hook right into it, and that's a plus. But I am intrigued by the Grizzly 3HP unit, and hope that some form of a review will be forthcoming, and quickly. From the lead time on testing that Jim B. talked about, that may be pushing the end of the envelope for even my time schedule. I do think that the comparison that Griz put up on their web site was a "little" premature, since they don't even have the numbers to back up their campaign yet. But Onieda should have just put out a statement that said that, and to keep an open mind until some independant testing is done. But it's fun having something to look forward to, huh? Jim.

[mike lucas]

I am sure Oneida makes more money selling the bigger units to big commerial shops, but there are many bigger and better cyclones to choose from then Oneida.

If they stay in business or not, really doesn't matter much too me, as better companies have went away due to not wanting to keep up, or not being able to. I have worked for 3 companies went belly up while I worked there. No company will last forever unless it is large enough for the Government to step in and help, as they did with Dodge in the 80`s.
Sure it would be good if Oneida can stay afloat, but that isn't up to me. They have to offer the best they can for the best prices, and even then, there are no promise that they will be here next year.

If I could spend the money for a good cyclone dust collector, I'd be looking at something like the Dustkop or another, but probably not Oneida.

According to what Bill wrote, the Oneida under 3 hp units will not get the job done properly. So you have to spend at least $2300 at Oneida, or maybe $1500 for a new Grizzly (If they are as good as PappaGrizzly is saying!) That is a huge difference for most small shops (Like I have!) or a weekend hobbyist. If Grizzly is right and their new units are way better then Oneida units, then Oneida is in deep trouble.

Oneida sales dust collecton equipment only, where as Grizzly sales thousands of different items to make their money. I have never bought anything from either company, but there is always a first, and I do need a new dust collector that can handle a one man shop working full time. (And I want something that does not need a blast gate at each machine or tool.) Right now it looks like Grizzly could be on my list of companies to buy from in the not so distant future. (5 horsepower unit with 16" fan sounds like it may be the one.)

[Ted Harris]

In a competition of price vs price, price almost always wins. Grizzly is selling price and offering their justification (true or not).

OAS should be scared. Their price is no longer an issue, OAS is over-priced by $500. Now OAS has to start justifying the $500 difference in terms of quality. Think of the problem as: Should I buy a Grizzly 1023 or a Powermatic 66.

In dust collection, you get what you pay for...plain and simple.

[Rich Konopka]

I've heard this a number of times but have yet to see any proof of it. Care to share any proof?

Just last August they did a Glue showdown and knocked Tite Bond off its throne. The same issue the back cover the Titebond "Best Glue Ever". The next month or two the ads are gone and then a retraction appears proclaiming they made an error. The ads are back and it is a bit too coincidental for me. Magazines rely on advertisers and they cannot give a true impartial review because of this.

[JayStPeter]

In dust collection, you get what you pay for...plain and simple.

Well, yes and no. I'm not trying to get political here, just making a statement. Let's say the Grizzly cyclone body is all it is hyped up to be. I can now pay less for the same quality because it's made overseas. Let's face it. The metalwork is pretty simple on those things. Given that there's a reasonable design and decent thickness sheet metal, a cyclone body is a cyclone body.

However, I seriously doubt that Grizzlys filters are quite as nice as Oneidas. Given that my filter alone was a $400 option, it better be fantastic (it is).

On the other hand. Who cares if my filter catches 95% or 99.9% of the dust when my TS spits 30% of it's dust into the room anyway. Until there's better capture at the source, I'm still sweeping up and blowing sawdust boogers at the end of the day. Maybe both companies should look at the other end of the hoses now.

If Grizzly added a dust shroud, and removable splitter with dust capturing guard to their cabinet saws, I might sell my Unisaw for one. Or, if OAS came up with a retrofit kit for various TSs, I'd gladly pay. Say a clear plastic dust shroud that can attach were the useless pawls attach to the Bies splitter (like the euro saws) and another that attaches to the trunnion somehow and allows a dust port right there.

Heck, I've been replacing my handheld tools with Festools mostly for their DC. It has become one of my main focuses when purchasing new tools. It has definitely got me thinking about replacing my TS (if I just had another racebike to sell).

Jay

[John Hulett]

the thing I find funny about the Onedia rant is, they are slamming a pre-marketing adver from grizzly. I would think (knowing grizzly) that there will be more detailed info forthcoming. If you look at what grizzly does and spectrum of what they sell, it's like walmart moving in on your turf. Early response will maybe catch early converts but in the long run, the competition will cause better products, more features for lower costs. The statement where Onedia talks about the chinese built motor _vs_ the american motor is kinda funny IMHO.



Keith

The part I think is really funny is Oneida's quote: "OAS could buy cheap Chinese and Asian motors for half of what it costs us to use Baldor and Leeson, but we won't do it." Last I checked, China is a part of Asia.