Does Oneida have something to fear from Grizzly?

[John Renzetti]

hi I've read both the Grizzly ad and the Oneida rebuttle and didn't really find the Oneida rebuttle a rant. I really didn't like the Grizzly presentation. If they had left out the Oneida comparison and attack since some of the items were vague or distorted. When somebody makes a direct attack on another product, it gets me thinking..."that other product must be pretty good if the competition is attacking it."
The semantics of the geographic location of China being in Asia aside, Oneida makes a valid point about their use of the Baldor motors. Baldor motors especially in single phase are as good as is gets. When you look at the dataplate you know that what is stamped there, hp, duty rating, insulation amps, etc is what it says. I'm not convinced that what is stamped on a Chinese made single phase motor would be the same. In talking to some knowledgable people who have been in the electrical motor business for a long time, there is a little open secret that the buyer of a motor can get whatever they want, (within reason) stamped on the dataplate. So maybe that 3hp motor is really 2hp. It will pull 3hp but the insulation etc isn't going to take the heat so it will fail a lot sooner. Not long ago some people got a machine, made in China or Taiwan that was supposed to have a 2hp motor, but the motor was stamped 1.5hp. Other machines came in with the 2hp stamp. Same motor.
The customer that Grizzly is going for probably isn't going to notice that the motor is the weak spot. But a commercial shop that runs the DC continuously all day might want to make sure that the motor is going to hold up to that continuous operation. This is all speculation. The motor that Grizzly uses could be a top rated 1ph motor. But right now based on what I've seen and heard of Asian 1ph motors, I'd prefer paying extra for the Baldor.
I have nothing against Grizzly. The owner is a fine woodworker and has built that company from nothing into a big firm. I just don't think with all the good advertising they do, they needed to run an attack ad like they did.
Just my $.02
take care,
John

[Keith Christopher]

a direct attack on another product, it gets me thinking..."that other product must be pretty good if the competition is attacking it."
The customer that Grizzly is going for probably isn't going to notice that the motor is the weak spot. But a commercial shop that runs the DC continuously all day might want to make sure that the motor is going to hold up to that continuous operation. This is all speculation. The motor that Grizzly uses could be a top rated 1ph motor. But right now based on what I've seen and heard of Asian 1ph motors, I'd prefer paying extra for the Baldor.
I have nothing against Grizzly. The owner is a fine woodworker and has built that company from nothing into a big firm. I just don't think with all the good advertising they do, they needed to run an attack ad like they did.
Just my $.02
take care,
John

Agree, however I really feel they're looking a Grizzly like some sort of walmart moving in on their turf. I do believe the Onedia product is excellent. But I have to think this is like my example for TV's. Once samsung produces a product like yours, the prices are gonna drop. Once Grizzly produces these and they get use and good reviews well, I'm sure If I buy one and the motor seems cheap enough I can get a better motor and install it. Lets wait for the independant reviews to surface. A good product is a good product, but not everyone needs/wants a top shelf product.


Keith

[Ellen Benkin]

I just tried to look at the Oneida posting and was denied access. Do you think they pulled it?

[Frank Pellow]

I just tried to look at the Oneida posting and was denied access. Do you think they pulled it?

They might have. The same thing just happened to me.

[Ted Shrader]

All -

The whine in Oneida's response has been toned down. New page is here.

Oneida offers a good quality product, but I think they are a little sensitive to Grizzly's new offering. Time will tell. I am in the market and am waiting for the Griz to hit the streets.

Ted

[Frank Pellow]

All -

The whine in Oneida's response has been toned down. New page is here.

Oneida offers a good quality product, but I think they are a little sensitive to Grizzly's new offering. Time will tell. I am in the market and am waiting for the Griz to hit the streets.

Ted

That's a LOT better! It is very close to what I would have advised them to post (rather than the post about Grizzly that used to be there).

[Terre Hooks]

The customer that Grizzly is going for probably isn't going to notice that the motor is the weak spot. But a commercial shop that runs the DC continuously all day might want to make sure that the motor is going to hold up to that continuous operation. This is all speculation.

Yes, I'd say that most of it is speculation.

I've been in the cabinet shop that does the highest quality work around here. He employs 8-10 people, and stays 4+ months behind. He is the only one that I would pay to build cabinets for me.

He has 2 Grizzly dust collectors. One is a 4 HP unit that runs 10-11 hours a day (they work 4-10's.) It is turned off 2-3 times a day, for cleaning, lunch, and end of day. Other than that, it runs. It has to. I think this unit is more than 4 years old.

He also has a single machine unit, a 1029 on his countertop saw.

He also has a 1023 that is about 10+ years old, and is what he started his cabinet shop business with. It still runs, most everyday, ripping up faceplate.

Granted, he has bought two other cabinet saws, one a 3hp and one a 5 hp Unisaw. The first one he said he just wanted to try a Unisaw and the other I think he got a good deal on the 5 hp.


I'd wait until there's some user feedback about the Grizzly cyclones.

Sure, everyone would love to have an Oneida machine. I'd love to have a US made 12" jointer and 20" planer. If I wanted to afford that, I'd have to drive a 82 Datsun pickup to work. I haven't seen many 'LUVs' running around that old, lately.

You want some US made machinery, check http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/ .

[Bill Crofutt]

There are more questions than answers in this thread, but perhaps I can answer a few.

Oneida has been “attacking” Grizzly for years. I personally have spoken to customers that got off the phone with the Oneida salespeople and wanted me to hear what was said. Eventually, I called them myself and learned. In the past we never compared ourselves directly to a competitor, but enough is enough.

They tested a cyclone made in Taiwan, but not ours. It is NOT the same unit we used to sell, as they would ask you to believe. Even though we did quite well against them in the WOOD magazine test, we were not happy with the performance of the old cyclone and have discontinued selling it. Hence a two-year research and development project began. No one has tested our new cyclone except us, however we certainly will make these available for testing as soon as we are in full production. Magazines have already been contacted.

We have contacted every source out there that could supply cyclone information. If anyone is naive enough to think they were the only source we contacted when we “swallowed our pride” then so be it. Others call that research. But this IS old technology just being used in a different way. There is no “magic” in the design. We have taken what we believe to be the best ideas from many sources not to mention the more than a dozen Grizzly engineers then built dozens of configurations carefully testing each one until we were satisfied with the results.

We did in fact buy and test Oneida cyclones, but they are not the only ones. It’s just they are the only ones reporting fiction as fact in regards to our cyclones.

Yes, we were/are a little premature in announcing our new cyclones, but with good reason. Our master catalog is a once a year event and we had to have them in the 2005 catalog even if they were not entirely finished. And, we couldn’t very well have our new catalog hit the streets with no mention of the cylones on the web site. For those interested we will have detailed information including performance curves and certification of our filters on the web site in days not weeks.

[Jim O'Dell]

Snip:
You want some US made machinery, check http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/ .

That is some serious iron. I notice they don't publish any prices, not that it would make any difference for me ;-). Jim.

[Steven Wilson]

So Bill, how about toning down the BS on the Grizzly website and publish some real information. Do you have fan curve information that you care to publish instead of the inventive "free air" CFM numbers you post on your other DC's? How about independent testing (or certification) of your filter media. The only two players, in the lower end commercial market, that have been truthfull with consumers have been Felder and Oneida.

[Frank Pellow]

That is some serious iron. I notice they don't publish any prices, not that it would make any difference for me ;-). Jim.

Jim, they do publish prices on the web site and, they too, are serious!

[Terry Hatfield]

Thanks for the post Bill. I look forward to seeing the curves and filtration information.

Terry

[Jim O'Dell]

Jim, they do publish prices on the web site and, they too, are serious!

Must have been that self preservation thing going on. LOML would have killed me for sure!!! Jim.

[Brad Olson]

snip... Do you have fan curve information that you care to publish instead of the inventive "free air" CFM numbers you post on your other DC's? How about independent testing (or certification) of your filter media. The only two players, in the lower end commercial market, that have been truthfull with consumers have been Felder and Oneida.

snip... No one has tested our new cyclone except us, however we certainly will make these available for testing as soon as we are in full production. Magazines have already been contacted.

snip... For those interested we will have detailed information including performance curves and certification of our filters on the web site in days not weeks.

Seems like we will see the data when the boat arrives, I think we need to settle down on that point. Both the CEO of Griz and Bill have stated that they are in the process of getting the data out and when they have units available they will go out for testing.

[mike lucas]

Honda is advertising a new 1/2 ton truck that they claim will “revolutionary” and proclaiming it will “redefine what a truck can be,” Then there is Dodge with their up coming Maxicab truck. They claim that it is much larger then the cab on either Ford or GM full size trucks.

Neither is out yet, but it doesn't stop the claims from pouring out.

Ford has showed their truck pulling an aircraft to get it air bourne, Chevy has showed their truck carrying a Ford and Dodge on the bed while driving up a mountian side, and microsoft has claimed that their operating system is better then Apple computer. (That last one is the biggest joke/lie of any I have ever read!) And there are thousands of other examples!



I bring these examples up to point out to those that are complaining about Grizzly.

Only time will tell with any of them! Although, I really doubt that the new small 1/2 ton will revolutionize anything.

These type claims go on in every competitive field, so why are so many crying about Grizzly?