Trends in tool purchasing - voice in....

[Chris DeHut]

Having been involved in woodworking in some way shape or form since I was a little feller, it seems as though i am seeing a new trend within the hobby.

For many years (the last 15~20) buying on price seemed to be the driving force as to which tool a person would purchase. This is what drove many tool mfgs. to outsource manufacturing to China and elsewhere in the world. Several of the remaining tool companies have annouced further oursourcing of manufacturing to keep costs down and to remain price competitive. As we all know, this has been going on for many years now.

However, recently, within the last 2 or maybe 3 years, the shift seems to be moving back towards top-end tools as the sought after choice. For example, many of the European saws (table and band) are making pretty impressive in-roads within hobby shops. These machines are generally much more costly than the western (or far eastern) built tools. Then there is the Festool brand that is gaining much popularity in the home workshop. These tools again, are priced high relative to many of the other tools available.

The other thread running on dust collection seems to also bring out some of the changes (buy american or buy chinese made to save money).

Over the years, I have purchased tools based primarily on "will it do the job" and "will it last for a while or end up in the trash can in a few months". The cost of the tool has not been a primary focus for me, but certainly weighs heavy on many of the purchases.

In your recent tool purchases, have you found yourself looking more towards "Quality at any price" or "Price first"?

Note, for what it is worth...

Everyone has their own budget for tools. I have owned plenty of very low cost tools over the years. Sometimes, I have had to purchase a tool that I knew would only last long enough to get me through a couple of jobs. However, the choice between not having a tool because I couldn't afford the best and having a tool to allow me to do the job, was always and easy decision. When something needs to be done, I need to do it. Like many things in life, there is a progression of purchases to get to the pinnacle.

Just curious what you folks are thinking about when making your purchases and if there really is a new trend happening.

Chris

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I would say that your reflections are accurate amoung the Saw Mill Creek demographic. However, most at Saw Mill Creek are very dedicated woodworkers that strive for perfection. Sure there are a lot of newbies, like me, but the member base seems to be more of a highly refined group of tradesmen. I think that these people are looking for more quality than cost.

However, I still see many people buying based on cost, especially, those new to the game. I mean how could you justify $2000 on a tool, or more, if you don't even know if you will like the hobby. Some don't. Everyone looks at price, for some it is more important than quality, others quality comes first.

[Ralph Steffey]

Since I make a living with my tools I always buy on quality first and price second but I still look for the best deal I can find

[Greg Mann]

There is certainly a demographic element to this. Many of us are at a point of convergence in our lives. We can afford to spend more for a higher quality tool and we recognize that is, very often, economical to do just that. There is a circular logic to all of this. 1. We aspire to do higher quality work. 2. We recognize that higher quality tools aid in this process. 3. We recognize that higher quality tools cost more. 4. We can afford higher quality tools. 5. We appreciate the satisfaction derived from the results. Some of you may argue these points in total or individually but I maintain that they are generally true.

In my day job, we constantly try to get our customers to understand the difference between cost and price. We try to buy high performing products that give us high return. "Expensive to buy, cheap to use." And, conversely, we aspire to provide high performance products that assemble correctly, perform to expectations, eliminate warranty costs, etc. I try to use the same philosophies in my woodworking life.


Greg

[Bob Johnson2]

I agree with Jeff observations, go look around at some other forums, you'll find the majority are looking mostly at price. This group attracts the opposite from what I've seen in the short while I've been spending time here, of course that's why I hang here instead of there. It'd be interesting (although probably not suprising) to see the demographics of the different groups.

Go Pats!

[Frank Pellow]

I would like to think that quality tools are becoming important again, but I fear that as mentioned by Jeff and Greg, that the quality of tools is only important to a small segment of the woodworking community.

[Jim Becker]

After making a few "ill-advised" tool purchases when I first started woodworking about 7 years ago, I've pretty much consistently bought quality/features over price. In fact, I often say, "The most expensive tool is the one you need to replace early and often"...and I sincerely believe that.

About the only place in my "purchasing life" that I tend to buy on price is clothing. For tools, automobiles, appliances, etc., I buy the best I can afford, even if it means waiting a little longer to get it.

Chris, I think that the trend you've noticed is still not fully mainstream, although it's moving in a positive direction. More and more folks are moving on the premium stuff. But part of that is because of the resurgence in woodworking within the younger generation again, especially with professionals in various industries that pay well but leave people needing serious hobbies to stay sane. And due to the Internet and forum sites like SMC, more and more folks are becoming aware that there is life beyond the numerically more common brands.

[Herb Blair]

Chris,
I guess the old axiom is approriate here... buy quality, buy it once, buy cheap, and you'll buy it again.... and again.
When I started out in woodworking, cost was very important to me, as I didn't have a lot of money to spend on tools, I was busy raising a family and all of the expenses that entails. In recent years, as my nest has emptied, I've started replacing some of those purchases with a much higher quaility tool. What was adequate 20 years ago, just don't cut it (no pun intended) these days.
Not only do I see a trend in folks like me going to higher cost (and quality) tools, but I also see a love for the old tools, such as planes, chisels and saws.
Several years ago I upgraded from a Craftsman dovetail jig to a Leigh Jig, and hadn't even considered hand cutting dovetails, but through this and other forums, I found that others were learning how. So, I started out with a inexpensive saw. I stuggled with it, but taught myself how to hand cut dovetails in a couple of weeks. To reward myself, I bought a LN Dovetail saw, and found that it made the task easier and even more enjoyable. Looking back, had I had the LN to begin with, it would have made the learning easy.
So, I think that two forces are playing here on the demographics of woodworkers. First, the population is aging (therefore the descresionary income is growing), and communication with other woodworkers through this and other forums. An example of this is a recent posting saying that one distrubutor had a couple of rasps on sale. There was an immediate flurry of orders for those rasps. (Keep up with the Joneses?)

[Doug Shepard]

I suspect part of the resurgence in the costlier, quality tools isn't something that's limited to WW tools. A lot of baby boomers getting older, with kids out of the house, and they've suddenly got disposable income to buy toys they've wanted for 30 years. Whether that's WW tools, Harleys, Honda Goldwings, Complete workshops, Vacation homes, etc., etc.

My personal approach is to shop and compare on quality and features. But once I've decided on a particular model or brand, I'll shop til I drop to try to find the best price I can.

[John Weber]

Chris,

There are many factors that come into play. First disposable income is at an all time high – or so it seems. People now spend fortunes on hobbies of all sorts. I don’t think this type of spending ever occurred in the past. Just think of any subject or interest you have and there are 1,000’s of other people doing the same thing, from Photography, cars, woodworking, sewing, scrap booking, you name it… The other half of the coin is most woodworking tools are commodity items, and purchased primarily on cost. Even though a woodworker can afford most any tool in any given category, he simply choices what best meets his needs and often that is the low cost.

Years ago we took shop class in a shop full of Delta or Powermatic equipment. Many kids thought when I grow up that is what I want. Then Jet, Grizzly, and other importers came on the scene, Jet following a traditional path of retailers and a service and distribution network, Grizzly following a mail order route. Jet, for the most part always spec'd their equipment fairly well and has grown and is now regarded at top player in woodworking tools. Grizzly was hampered by shoddy products and quality until recently (last 5 years), but developed a reputation of good bang for the buck. What seemed to develop was two camps, the Delta/Powermatic/General guys, willing to pay more for well respected equipment, excellent service, and superior fit and finish. And the Grizzly camp, where guys feel they are saving hard earned cash by buying an imported tool and they can live without a local service network or some of attention to detail as long as the tool does the job. Jet seems to fall in the middle offering better value then the North American built machines, and still having a strong service network.

Now we have the ultra high end guys, I believe this group is an off-shoot of the traditional US built tool group. They have the resources available and want the best tool available. That is why we are seeing the growth of companies such as Felder, MiniMax, Laguna, etc… However to enter this group substantial resources must be available to support the hobby. And we’ll always have the cobbler down the block that makes wonderful stuff on equipment we would toss in the trash.

Much of this is also reflected on the hand tool side, with plenty of guys happy with old Stanleys, a large segment values the new offerings from Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, and others, and finally the ultra high end with English smoothers, rare Stanleys, and other planes I’ll never own.

Now we are seeing a bit of this in the portable hand tool market, although most name brands tools still offer the best compromise in cost and performance. Cheap tools from Harbor Freight and others will always be “cheap”, sometimes doing the job and other times not. The recent influx of European tools demonstrates there is demand for higher quality, more function, and/or both. It seems like the first area we saw a big influx was the quiet high efficiency vacs, as woodworkers dumped their shop vacs in favor of a machine that cost several times as much, but was quite and well designed.

Finally the buying decisions also drift into politics, most woodworkers hate to see the announcement of losing more US jobs (like the PC notice a couple weeks ago), and many dislike the idea of supporting a company that has manufacturing in places were we don’t agree with the politics or policies. Although with more and more companies moving to these countries it often becomes difficult to voice our decision with our purchasing power.

So, yes there is a trend toward high end tool and fully outfitted shops. I grew up with old American iron and that is what I like. Many are just as satisfied with an imported machine and that is fine. Hopefully the market is moving away from lowest cost and toward quality and choice. I think as long as we vote with our wallets, then at least some tool makers will go after the higher niches, and not focus on the lowest common dominator – low price. The influx of disposable income has helped our hobby, but at the same time woodworking equipment and tools are the best value I believe they have ever been as a percentage of income.

Now if I just had a little more time and money…

John

[Dave Avery]

Wow...... I agree with almost everything everyone has said..... that's pretty rare

I'll only add that time is much more valuable to me than money, so I now buy only high quality tools. And those tools not only improve the quality of my work and reduce the time it takes to makes things, they make the entire process more enjoyable. As an example, the Festool Rotex sander turned drudgery in to something I don't mind doing.

One final note, and a well hidden gloat..... my new Festool router arrived this evening, so I'll be reading the manual and playing around with it a little later.


Dave.

[Bob Marino]

Funny, I just wrote several paragraphs as a reply to this thread, went to preview my post and the reply got "lost". But it turns out, it is very much a reitteration of the other replies here. I, like Dave, find myself in agreement with the replies posted so far.
I don't think it marketing hype that's responsible for high end companies (or rather companies producing high quality tools) seeing their sales on the increase. Yes, I suppose there's a bit of that, but there would never be repeat business -, snob appeal doesn't work if the tools don't perform!!!
The most expensive tools are those which waste one's time because of poor...or unsafe performance.

Bob

[Dennis Peacock]

I purchase based on quality FIRST and then price. Festool, Jet, Delta, DeWalt, Hitachi, Porter-Cable, Laguna and others. But....I have a better understanding of tools and what quality tools can do better for a person as well as saving in time and materials.

Sure wish I knew what I know about.....but only about 20 years EARLIER!!!

[Dale Thompson]

Chris,

In my humble opinion, it is mainly the fault of the "baby boomers" who are "empty nesters" and have beaucoup bucks to spend. These folks are much smarter than I am and invested wisely. I'm selling my Enron stock for only half of what I paid. Is anyone interested?

In the late sixties, I had a well paying middle management job. However, the welfare of my family took priority over my infant woodworking hobby. The only "stationary" tool that I had was a $99.00 9" Sears Radial Arm Saw. I finished two basement recreation rooms with it. The thing was used for cross cutting, ripping, planing, shaping, molding, dadoing, ploughing, pin routing, disc sanding, drum sanding, miters, bevels and a combination of the two. It was also used as a horizontal boring machine and a short-stroke drill press. I think that the thing is still in use. As time passed, I added other, more specialized, tools to my shop. Even then, Sears was the best cost/value product for the home woodworker. There were no other choices.

When I took off the hand-cuff, known as a watch, and "retired" seven years ago, I had a "tool fund"! REPLACE EVERYTHING WITH THE BEST!! I think that I did. I monitored forums, asked a lot of stupid questions and made my decisions according to the experts. Since I found a "home" on the CREEK, I don't think that I made too many mistakes.

Whether the color was a pucky, baby-excrement yellow, a nice black and yellow, blue and red, white, green, whatever, I followed the crowd.

The bottom line: We are paying 300-400% more for a tool which MIGHT increase our accuracy by 10-20%. Is it worth it?

YES!!!!! YES!!!!! YES!!!!

I STILL miss my little 9" RAS.

Dale T.

[JayStPeter]

Well, I switch back and forth. I have been really liking the Festool stuff. But, with the big machines, I have to fall back for price. Every so often I can spend $500 on my hobby. Getting $2500 together is a different story. So, I have a Grizzly bandsaw instead of Minimax. I would if I could though

I do agree with the others that we are a real minority.

Jay