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Thread: Despatches from China

  1. #1
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    Despatches from China

    As some of you know , I am on a trip to China to source and see the quality of various items that most of us laser engravers use or buy.
    I have come to see and buy and visit factories that produce
    Trophies , Metal cups , crystal awards , acrylic awards , medals , marble bases , wood shields and plaques , trophy trimming, fittings, laser engraving laminates , perspex sheets , Co2 lasers, Yag and fibre lasers and some creative art stuff like statues , ornate woodwork, blown Glass , leds , magnets and any other stuff I consider a good opportunity
    I flew 15000 km to get here - a 24 hour trip including a stopover of 5 hours in Dubai (It's no shopping mecca , its pretty expensive)
    I ,landed in Guangzhou at midnight so saw nothing of it and flew internally to the market city of Yiwu - local airline wasnt bad.
    Let me tell you right now - China is not backward and cheap cheap quality is not the watchword here right now - perhaps a few years ago .. but not now!!
    Anyway I landed in Yiwu which is the melting pot of the world for those wishing to buy just about anything under the sun. It is one HUGE wholesale markets with 10 of thousands of factories and other industries having permanent showrooms. Apart from the many many off market offices , there is a market/fair as well.
    To describe this as a market is rediculous , it is a city within a city of 3-4 million people, there are 5 districts (huge buildings , bigger than 100 malls) each with 4 floors and on each floor you will find about 5-8000 manufacturers "showrooms" (they are small)
    You can find anything here - from jewellery to rubber bands to whatever.
    Anyway , I am spending a week here looking for trophies , acrylic , crystal , awards, creative arts etc - primarily for trophies
    From Monday to Wed I have been visiting various factory showrooms of trophy factories and it has been an eye opener.
    Metal cups: You get 3 classes , low quality , medium and high. Low quality is perfectly acceptable for the price , its actually pretty good for the price, medium quality is actually "exceptional" quality and high quality is not that much better than medium , but a lot more expensive.
    Actually low quality is not the same type and range of medium and high , medium consists of high polish and very thick metal and plated items , high quality is also similar but over the top designs and thick gold or silver or polished stainless steel finishes.
    The pricing is rediculously low for any trophy in $ terms , a 15" plastic trophy (a large cup with a lid) on a heavy plastic (filled with plaster of paris) base is under $2. a "low" quality metal bodied cup with a metal final and smaller plastic stem on a decent base , 20" high and really big is about $7-9. HUGE high quality trophies , gold plated , 30" high (massive cup type things) are around $60 (they would sell for at least 5x that)
    PDU type figurines and wreaths of "ok" quality are 30-50c
    Medals , 3" diameter , heavy (50 grams) and thick , with superb detail and HEAVY and beautifully polished plating (I have not seen such good quality before) , Round 70c
    Crystal stuff abounds , also at rediculous prices , innovative designs , stuff I have never seen before , at prices like $5 for 10-12" examples, heavy stuff!!
    Plastic components , like tubing , cups , pdu type stuff etc is so cheap that I can't even credit how it is made at those prices , I'm not really looking at that type of stuff as it's "old hat" and you can get better trophies and awards fully assembled for a little more.
    I have visited around 15 trophy supply houses , who sell directly from factory and am suffering from product/information overload , the variety is so vast and the ranges so extensive , I don't know what to order or where to start placing one.
    These places also stock acrylics, plaques from ordinary to extremely ornate , cast frames , trays , badge fittings and so on.
    I have catalogues for most of these places and have taken a zillion pictures and inspected the items for flaws and for quality.
    Most of the people manning the market/showrooms dont speak english , but the agent you appoint in China/Yiwu provides a translator and someone to show you around , find the places etc for $35 a day.
    You have to have an agent , they pick you up from the airport , meet you at the hotel , translate , take you to the places and factories you need to see , help place orders , find the best prices , deal with the factories , do the quality control , disburse funds only if the factories deliver the right stuff , warehouse the various factories stuff as they deliver , see its the right stuff , pack the container/s and ship for you , for 3% of your order amount. They probably get kick backs from the factories and make up some money in other ways ..but they are essential. Most of the factories have high minimum order quantities , some as low as 12 pieces of one design and size to 100+ pieces and 500/1000 piece orders for stuff like figurines. You can buy from a reseller type agent at about 15-30%higher and order much lower quantities - like 1's
    Yiwu itself is mental and mind boggling , it is packed with people , there is nothing to see and do apart from shop..it is a town of high rises , huge markets , and huge retail markets - like the night market which starts at 6pm and ends at 4 am , the biggest flea market you have ever seen and then x that by 100.....
    Traffic is mental , traffic lights , pedestrian crossings , scooter drivers and other cars are ignored , its like one huge racetrack/bumper derby - no one indicates and ppl change lanes at will , there is a constant blare of hooters and despite about 100 near misses , I havent seen any accidents , normal people cannot drive there and crossing a road is taking your life in your hands. Taxis are cheap .. a 5 mile journey will cost you $2 or less.
    Food at supermarkets is cheap too - a can of coke is 40c , I bought some stuff at a supermarket , snack type stuff (like twinkies) and a huge bag including 2 packs of 20's marlborough came to about $15. It must be said , the snacks especially the chocolate covered stuff wasnt the best tasting..ok , but not as rich or flavoursome as nice western snacks.
    Ppl smoke anywhere and everywhere in China..
    Here are some pics....
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Rodney Gold, Toker Bros trophies, Cape Town , South Africa :
    Roland 2300 rotary . 3 x ISEL's ..1m x 500mm CnC .
    Tekcel 1200x2400 router , 900 x 600 60w Shenui laser , 1200 x 800 80w Reci tube Shenhui Laser
    6 x longtai lasers 400x600 60w , 1 x longtai 20w fiber
    2x Gravo manual engravers , Roland 540 large format printer/cutter. CLTT setup
    1600mm hot and cold laminator , 3x Dopag resin dispensers , sandblasting setup, acid etcher

  2. #2
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    Many questions, Rodney, but I'll try to distill to the essentials, and you may not be able ot answer some until you start receiving goods:
    1) You say the displayed stuff is of surprisingly good quality... will the delivered goods be of the same quality or will you be at the end of a bait and switch?
    2) 3% sounds very fair for the agent's services... I'd call it almost unfair to the agent. A $5k order would net him a mere $150... quite a few US agents wouldn't even bother giving you the time of day for that. I wonder what extras they might throw in if you threw a little "bonus" their way from time to time...
    3) Will the agents work in a similar fashion (and cost?) for one-time large equipment orders? If so, that may prove helpful on cutting down DOA equipment.
    4) Does it make sense to start at one end of the market(s) and wander from showroom to showroom, or is it so jumbled that it's better to tell the agent what you're after and he takes you to the correct booth?
    5) Any unique designs for awards not seen in the typical JDS/Marco/etc. catalogs? If so, do these companies offer catalogs/websites with images of their wares? Could be a useful source for the guys who want to offer more than just the standard fair but don't have artistic talent enough to come up with our own (<cough cough> Me <cough cough>).
    6) Any list of what is being offered (in general terms)? Like shopping for tools, sometimes I don't know what I need until I see it.
    7) For those of us who do not order in container quantities, how does that affect pricing, shipping times, etc.? Do the agents take that sort of thing into account, or do they generally only work with container-sized orders (even if it's small quantities from many many vendors)?
    8) That's good for starters
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  3. #3
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    That is AWESOME! (in the true sense of the word)
    Rodney, thanks for thinking of all of us folks that will probably never get to see these sights. It brings home to me as to why the U.S. seems to be falling behind in this economic battle we are in. To my knowledge there are not any places like you describe in this country. There are of course trade shows and furniture markets and the like but not like this.
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  4. #4
    Larry

    Markets do exist here for a number of commodities. Perhaps not as big as China but still sizable. The gift market is an example and there is one in NY, Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas, SF to name the ones which come to mind.

    I think the big difference is that the ones Rodney is visiting are mostly mfrs exhibits where ours are more reps and dists. Our trade shows do have many mfrs and the housewares show is one of the big ones in the world as is the CES. (electronics)

    Before I retired we used to source a number of items from Taiwan and Korea. WE found that we had to have somebody on site to maintain spec. I retired 15 years ago so those things may have changed.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

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  5. #5
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    "Anyway I landed in Yiwu which is the melting pot of the world for those wishing to buy just about anything under the sun. It is one HUGE wholesale markets with 10 of thousands of factories and other industries having permanent showrooms. Apart from the many many off market offices , there is a market/fair as well.
    To describe this as a market is rediculous , it is a city within a city of 3-4 million people, there are 5 districts (huge buildings , bigger than 100 malls) each with 4 floors and on each floor you will find about 5-8000 manufacturers "showrooms" (they are small)"

    Not as described here Mike.
    Epilog Legend EXT36-40watt, Corel X4, Canon iPF8000 44" printer,Photoshop CS6, Ioline plotter, Hotronix Swinger Heat Press, Ricoh GX e3300 Sublimation

  6. #6
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    Thanks Rodney,

    Very good to hear some of the details. Have a safe trip.
    Dean Fowell

    Support Engineer
    Cad Cam Solutions



    Georgia USA Previously Down Under
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  7. #7
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    Rodney-thanks for great thread, I appreciate your sharing this journey with us!
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  8. #8
    Thank you for sharing this info with us and describing what you have seen. This is an experience very few of us on this forum will ever witness. For those of us who do not live in big cities .... wow. To imagine what you are looking at just standing on a street corner watching the traffic and life whiz by about you....
    I read recipes the same way I read science fiction. I get to the end and I think, "Well, that’s not going to happen."

  9. #9
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    My thanks too Rodney. Your posts are always informative.
    By the way, have you yet taken delivery of your chinese laser equipment? I have
    been waiting eagerly for your thoughts on your intended purchases.
    Hilton Lister. NZ
    GCC Spirit 60w. Meistergram 912, Gravograph IT, Old Roland Vinyl Cutter, Hand engraving, Retired

  10. #10
    Hey, Rodney, that was such a great post! I felt overwhelmed just reading about what you saw, it must be intense being there in person. Like Mike said, those of us from tiny places would never see so much merchandise, so many people and traffic, such large scale living. Thanks for the glimpse... and commentary... very informative!

    cheers, dee
    Epilog Mini 18/25w & 35w, Mac and Vaio, Corel x3, typical art toys, airbrush... I'm a Laserhead, my husband is a Neanderthal - go figure

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  11. #11
    Pretty interesting. How did you find your agent, and where do you recommend one should start looking for an agent?

    Dave
    Epilog 35 W 12x24
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  12. #12
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    Dan , the final quality of what you get is fairly consistent with what you see.. China is business oriented these days and has high tech mnfgring processes.. yes you do have to keep an eye on quality , but your agent checks the quality when items are delivered. They don't do a bait and switch as that would be very counterproductive to doing business with the west or east. The chinese will manufacture to a price point , if you want to pay $1 instead of the quoted $1.10 , then you will get a decrease in quality of the $1 product. That seems to be the problem with "cheap chinese goods" , not the mnfgrs , but the buyers.
    In terms of Agents , well Im a small player here , I intend to buy around $30-50k in awards , but Im pretty certain that 3% isnt all they will make off this , I too can't believe they will offer all those services for $1-1.5k.. I think they are getting kickbacks from the factory , shippers and govt subsidies. I use my own shippers in SA tho , and they are headed by a chinese guy who I have been dealing with for many years and he takes over as soon as the container reaches a port in China , so I never get shafted on the actual shipping.
    Im not sure what the situation would be on a one time large equipment order - my shippers, not agents, have offices all over China and they have overseen the shippingof my lasers , which arrive in Cape town on the 19th of may , I am seeing the laser ppl on the 21/22nd of May , so if there are issues with my machines , I will be there to beat em up (I have a pal that has bought one of their machines setting em up and checking all the stuff is theree - but they sent documents and a few spares they didnt have in stock via TNT and it arrived in 3 days and the spares looked just fine quality to me..especially for the price) Hilton , I plan to document the whole laser saga really well , including a video tour of their factory etc.
    The market is divided into sections , it took me over 2 days just to do the Stationery section (trophies for some reason fall into stationery) and you walk for miles to find the trophy shops inbetween the other mnfgrs shops, it would be impossible to wander the markets unless you had a month or 2 to spare and walked a marathon each day - you have to more or less know what you want here and have someone to guide you. I recon it would take a good 6 months to see ony a smallk part of what is on offer here. Factories from all over China use this as their showcases. there are also about 7 "smaller" markets , like the furniture market (which has only about 15 000 factories represented there)
    There are tons of designs that I havent seen in any western catalogue , lots of catalogues available , you struggle to get a full price list of the whole catalogue as the general thing is that you mail em what you interested in and they quote - a lot of the factories there are geared to producing what YOU want as well , doing samples and making up tooling in days at low low cost for that. the factories will send ppl to come fetch you , think nothing of taking you on a 2 hr drive to em and then back , will wine you and dine you etc. They will think nothing of working a 15 hr day with you. (BTW there are not many ramshackle cars here - mostly quite new stuff and classy stuff - none of the "cheap" chinese cars we see at home , those they export )
    You can order smaller orders from the myriad of resellers/tradng co's here in yiwu , but you will pay higher prices due to small quantities and shipping will be more expensive , time would probably be the same as a lot of co's use shippers that consolidate freight , butt sharingpart of a container is way more expensive - a 20ft container is $1500 to cape town , a 40ft double that , its probably $7-900 to the USA as more freight goes that way - but I don't know .

    I am off to Beijing on Saturday , gonna see the great wall , forbidden city and meet the factory/supplier of laserable engraving laminates, acrylic sheeting , sublimation metal , mirrored acrylic etc - I have imported 700 odd sheets of laserable stuff and want to get their acrylic sheeting , but their MOQ (min order qty) of 5 tonnes is too big for me , so want to get it reduced to 2.5 tonnes and want to represent em in south africa for some of their products.
    BTW those BIG trophies in the 1st pic are like $5-6 and the crystal awards around the same price.
    Rodney Gold, Toker Bros trophies, Cape Town , South Africa :
    Roland 2300 rotary . 3 x ISEL's ..1m x 500mm CnC .
    Tekcel 1200x2400 router , 900 x 600 60w Shenui laser , 1200 x 800 80w Reci tube Shenhui Laser
    6 x longtai lasers 400x600 60w , 1 x longtai 20w fiber
    2x Gravo manual engravers , Roland 540 large format printer/cutter. CLTT setup
    1600mm hot and cold laminator , 3x Dopag resin dispensers , sandblasting setup, acid etcher

  13. #13
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    WOW what an adventure..... Any sign of 2 sided Gloss White Sublimation FRP in something thicker than we can get here at about 1/8 of and inch..... Just in case you happen to see some... I tried to get some here but no go...

    Reminds me of my Navy days visiting 27 countries...

    Have a Safe Trip.

    AL
    1 Laser, 4 CarveWrights, Star 912 Rotary, CLTT, Sublimation, FC7000 Vinyl, 911 Signs, Street Signs, Tourist Products and more.
    Home of the Fire Department "Epoxy Dome Accountability Tag and Accountability Boards".

  14. #14
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    I will be seeing the Co that does subli metal in Beijing , considering I don't do sublimation , explain exactly what you need (when i did do sublimation , we coated our own stuff)
    I visited the "creative arts" section today and it was an eye opener, extremely creative , some "furniture" caught my eye. These wood cabinets are priced at $13!!!!!!
    Thinking of bringing some in , here's some pics of em
    Also pics of what Yiwu looks loke thru my hotel window , cept its about 30x what you see... Scenic ..ain't it
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Rodney Gold, Toker Bros trophies, Cape Town , South Africa :
    Roland 2300 rotary . 3 x ISEL's ..1m x 500mm CnC .
    Tekcel 1200x2400 router , 900 x 600 60w Shenui laser , 1200 x 800 80w Reci tube Shenhui Laser
    6 x longtai lasers 400x600 60w , 1 x longtai 20w fiber
    2x Gravo manual engravers , Roland 540 large format printer/cutter. CLTT setup
    1600mm hot and cold laminator , 3x Dopag resin dispensers , sandblasting setup, acid etcher

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodne Gold View Post
    BTW those BIG trophies in the 1st pic are like $5-6 and the crystal awards around the same price.
    Yeah, those crystal awards look awfully familiar (JDS, among others) that are being sold here for ten times the price. If I ever get in a big order, I may have to skip the "local" guys...
    Hi-Tec Designs, LLC -- Owner (and self-proclaimed LED guru )

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