Is Rob Cosman dovetail seminar worth the cost?

[Chris Atzinger]

Hi,

I am struggling a bit to make sound, good looking handcut dovetails. I have actually challenged my self to make a dovetail-a-day. Unfortunately my day 3 dovetails aren't that much different from my day 18 dovetails!

My local woodcraft is hosting Rob Cosman in June, and there is a 4hr seminar that has some open spots. I was told that this really isn't a hands-on type of session, but mostly Rob teaching and taking questions. The cost is $75.

Has anyone done this before? Was it helpful? Is there somewhere else I should be looking for some tutelage?

Thanks!
Chris

[Mike Henderson]

Making a good dovetail is mostly a matter of practice once you understand the process. You can buy Rob's DVD and get sufficient instruction to get started. If you're having problems, the best thing would be to work with someone more experienced who can look at what you're doing and offer suggestions.

If I was in your situation, I'd look for some hands-on instruction. It doesn't have to be Rob Cosman - many people can do good dovetails, and could provide you the help you need.

Mike

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I expect that sitting and watching would not help significantly more than watching the video except that you can perhaps see the fine details of what is done. As an example, does he split the line or run directly against the line while cutting.

My limited experience is cutting dovetails for one drawer out of hard maple. The fit is rock solid but it looks nothing like those pretty dovetails that I admire by others.

How is your sawing? The one thing that I did do is to practice my cutting. My cutting is not great, but it is at least ok. I do believe that for those perfect dovetails, you must be able to to do a few things (with which I struggle):

1. Cut a straight line. I found that while cutting the tails I sometimes do not cut a perfectly flat as is seen by placing a straight edge along it.
2. Cut perpendicular to the face of the board. If it is not straight, you probably need the wider end to be towards the inside of the joint so that it will snug up as you the joint is pushed together.
3. I cut the tails first and then I cut the pins, so, I must be able to hold the items securely and mark along the joint. When I did this, I noticed that some of my tails are not perfectly straight (because I see a slightly curved line). That is a good indicator that I need more practice in step (1) and that there will be fitting problems. Perhaps I should check this before marking.
4. Now the item with which i struggled the most; Where exactly must I cut for a good tight fit? I rarely see anyone show a really tight image of the cut with the line showing or not when the joint is cut, so, I must guess. I admit that much depends on how well you get close while marking. If you were at the class, you might be able to peek at how this looks.

I considered practice dovetails, and I decided that if I did this, then I would have only two tails so that I could more accurately and quickly judge how things fit based on what I cut. I found it difficult to determine which set was off I cut eight tails on my drawer.

The people that I know that met Rob Cosman were all impressed with him on many fronts. Given the opportunity, I would likely attend, but, if I were able to find someone that would hand cut dovetails with me and correct me as I go and perhaps show me how they do it one on one, I would do that instead.

[David Keller NC]

Chris - From the standpoint of "worth it", it depends on how you think about it. If you're really having trouble with something, nothing beats a person to talk to that has conquered the difficulties. One can't ask questions (and expect an answer) from a book or a video.

4 hours of instruction for $75 is very little money, unless the class size is 75 people - but I doubt that at a local Woodcraft store.

Whether $75 is worth it to you might depend a bit on your income & expenses. To many, $75 isn't all that much money. To a graduate student, it might be....

[Sean Hughto]

If your 18th are not much better than your 3rd, I think you may be making some fundamental mistake. You may be setting up you sawing such that your body is out of position. You may be failing to make careful enough marks. Something fundamental is wrong. The question is to find out what. A DVD - some pictures and posts here - a class - a friend nearby -a club nearby. Once you figure out the major error, you'll start to see improvement.

[Andrew Gibson]

If you make your way down to florida, you can hang out in my shop all day and we can cut joints out of wood in my scrap bin till your hearts content.
I don't claim to be the best at dovetails but I am confident in my abilities to make tight fitting and strong joints.

[Brian Kent]

A $75 workshop sounds like a very fair price. Not the only way to learn, but a good way.

[Mike Siemsen]

Chris,
If it is not a hands on workshop where the instructor can see what you are doing wrong it probably won't be much help. Most of the people I teach dovetailing to have to be taught how to saw, and how to sharpen and use a chisel. There are several different videos on youtube that you could watch. You are Cincinatti, while it is a bit more money for a hands on workshop I would think Kelly Mehler's School would be a good option. If you can wait until October come to WIA in Covington, KY, I will help you myself. I run the Handtool Olympics and dovetailing is one of the events. We always give tutorials to any one that wants one. We are in the Marketplace so it costs about $5 to get in. Rob Cosman was there last year and I wouldn't be surprised if he is there again this year cutting dovetails and selling plane irons and such. Chuck Bender is doing a workshop on cutting dovetails if you plan on attending the conference. He would also probably help you at his booth.
Mike Siemsen

[Mike Henderson]

4 hours of instruction for $75 is very little money, unless the class size is 75 people - but I doubt that at a local Woodcraft store.

Check on the number of people in the class. Rob Cosman would have to get a decent fee for offering the class, especially since he's not local. Unless the store is subsidizing the cost there'd have to be a fair number of people in the class to make it worth Rob's while.

Mike

[Chris Atzinger]

Thanks for the replies.

Andrew, I am in Cincy, so trip to Florida to practice dovetails might be a hard sell at home, but I genuinely appreciate the offer.

Mike, I went to the vendor show at WIA last year and will definitely go back this year. I have toyed with the idea of taking classes there. The idea is sounding better everyday.

I have pasted a link to some pics of the first dozen or so joints that I cut by hand. The improvement from #1 to-#4 is dramatic (considering the first set would never go together), to give you an idea of where I am.

https://picasaweb.google.com/catzing...eat=directlink

I would agree that I am making a fundamental mistake, consistently. I also agree that I definitely need more sawing practice. I'll keep plugging away until I run out of wood!

Thanks for the suggestions!

-Chris

[Jim Koepke]

My experience with dovetails is nothing to shout about.

Most of my learning has been on my own and reading everything I can find on the subject and watching videos on Youtube.

The most important thing in my experience is learning to saw square to the stock and keeping to the line.

My biggest mistake was thinking that not sawing to the line could be corrected on the second board. In theory, it can be corrected. In reality, if one can not saw straight on the first piece, how will it get any better on the second piece?

Notice there isn't anyone saying it works best if you do pins first or tails first. The only person for whom that makes a difference is the one cutting the joint.

One of my biggest mistakes may be working in pine or fir all the time. Just because it is a soft wood doesn't make it easy to work.

One of my recent changes was to saw from the outside faces toward the inside faces of the work. This tends to hide the chip out look where the saw exits. Outside faces are the faces that will show when the joint is assembled.

Another big moment in learning was when the light went on over my head about the chisel movement when chopping out the waste caused a loose look at the bottom edges of the joint. Many prefer to use a coping or fret saw to cut the waste down before paring the bottom of the joint. For me it is just as easy to chop it out. I now am very careful with the first bit of chopping and waste removal. The outside edge's bottom line is established first.

Then back to the most important issue, in my experience, the sawing.

Being able to saw straight and square, leaving a smooth cut, is in my opinion the most important part of making dovetails work.

Sloppy layout can lead to sloppy sawing.

Starting with stock that is square and flat is also important. This is another difficult part of working with big box fir. If it is flat today, it will likely change by tomorrow. Especially in places like here in the humidity rich Pacific Northwest.

I have practice dovetails laying around until they get used to heat the house. I try to look at each one and see what mistakes were made and how to correct those mistakes. They get dates and numbers if more are done the same day. There are circles and arrows to point to the errors.

Over time, my skills have become better. Especially the skills of saw and chisel sharpening.

One other thing I have learned about cutting dovetails is to cut the ones that show the most last. When first starting to cut dovetails, I noticed on drawers that the last dovetails cut always looked better than the first ones cut.

jtk

[Greg Portland]

If it is not a hands on workshop where the instructor can see what you are doing wrong it probably won't be much help.

+1000. I had watched all the videos and tried the different methods but 5 minutes with someone who knew what they were doing improved my DTs significantly.

[john brenton]

If it weren't for all the videos on the internet I'd say that even going to watch him would be worth it. But with all the vids on youtube and elsewhere I doubt it'd be worth the money. But, it could be worth it just to meet other wwers and hang out.

[Jim Koepke]

After looking at your pictures my first question is about your saw. My suggestion would be to mark lines on the end of a piece of wood square across and down and then cut them to make sure the saw is tracking properly. if it is, good. If not, then one has to determine if it is the saw or the hand guiding the saw. Go slow and watch to make sure the saw is staying in the same plane forward and back. Just like typing, work for accuracy and the speed will come with time.

My second suggestion is to make you bottom line a bit further from the edge. This is what people mean when they say make them proud. The depth of your cuts should be just a bit deeper than the thickness of the stock used. When carefully planed down, this can make the joint look better.

It also looks like you may be having trouble deciding on which side of the line to saw. Always saw on the waste side if you are not splitting the line. A little waste can be removed easier than putting back a hair of stock.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Just one more note. Looking at another post brought up this web site. I think I have seen it or another like it in the past, but it is a treasure trove of information.

http://www.amgron.clara.net/

jtk