blast gates

[Alan Schaffter]

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I can't figure out why one would want to use an expensive $30 sensor when there is absolutly nothing unsafe or wong with tapping on to the motor on/off switch to operate a Solenoid , relay or what every for a autogate. Accessorizes are commonly run off machines in this way. I do use similar devices , the Sears Auto Switch Model 24031 on my shop vacs to operate toosl., about $17. However I found them redundant and almost quit using them . At each work station I have plug strips with the circuit breakers. I have found it's just as easy to plug the tool and vac into the strip fro on/off then the Sears unit. Please give me an exact example where the $30 current sensor is cost effective? I just don't get it for shop apps.

Well, first, I didn't pay $30 for my CRM current sensor switches, and in fact didn't pay $20, which is what DigiKey was asking at the time. If you followed the link in my previous post, you would have seen I paid a lot less (less than $10 ea.).

Secondly, you obviously don't care if you have extra 110V or 220V cords or leads running everywhere and don't have any machines wired for 220V otherwise you wouldn't be using "plug strips". If you do have some 220V machines, are your wired "accessories" 220V also? If the accessories are 110V did you replace all your 220V cords with 3 wire + ground SJ, or are you being unsafe and violating most codes by getting 110V between one hot and ground?

I have 12 electrically activated pneumatically operated gates, 9 of them configured as autogates for my major machinery. No gates are mounted on machinery where they can be damaged. All are hidden below the floor or behind knee walls- the only thing coming from each machine is its power cord and dust hose, so it is easy to move any machine. All gate wiring is hidden as well and is low voltage (24V), lightweight bell wire, which is safe, easy to run, and INEXPENSIVE! If you follow this link you can see a video of how my DC system is configured. At this link you can see photos and a description of my shop. Mine is the first one listed.

Since we haven't seen even one photo of your shop or equipment, I suspect it is easy for you to use Sears Auto Switches on your "Figment" machines, DC, autogates, etc. Please prove us wrong.

[Alan Schaffter]

Two Autogates are installed in these branches isolating each other. So if branch A is being used a gate shuts off branch B. This helps to minimize leaks feeding into Branch B. etc. This also blocks outside air from flowing into the shop through the duct work. If you have an outside Cyclone feel the duct work in the winter time. Amazingly cold and will reach the outside temp.

Say what?!?!?! Want to explain how this happens? Is your DC located some distance (100 yds?) from your shop and connected by leaky duct? How does the cold air get in the duct and get returned to the shop?????

[Anthony Whitesell]

Where to use gates? At the tools of course but a couple of places few think about. I have two main branches coming off the out side Cyclone. Two Autogates are installed in these branches isolating each other. So if branch A is being used a gate shuts off branch B. This helps to minimize leaks feeding into Branch B. etc. This also blocks outside air from flowing into the shop through the duct work. If you have an outside Cyclone feel the duct work in the winter time. Amazingly cold and will reach the outside temp. Of course you need Autogates to do this.

While I'm preaching to the Choir here I'll keep harping - Use 6" ducts only. 4" will cut your CFM almost in half.

The duct work running outside wouldn't happen to get cold because it's metal and conducts/loses heat due to the material's (metal) extremely low specific heat?

Another possibility could be the duct is cold when you first start up the outdoor cyclone, because you have lost the heat in the air in the duct because there's no gate between the interior portion of the trunk and the cyclone body. So in actuality one would only need a single gate, in the main trunk immediately before it leaves the building headed to the DC. The gate would only need to be controlled by the lights. Lights On=Shop In Use=Gate Open. Lights Off=Gone Home=Gate Closed.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Well, first, I didn't pay $30 for my CRM current sensor switches, and in fact didn't pay $20, which is what DigiKey was asking at the time. If you followed the link in my previous post, you would have seen I paid a lot less (less than $10 ea.).

...and if you're up for a slightly less ready-built solution, you can buy a current sense transformer for about $3 (Digikey) and add a cheap MOSFET to build your own current sensors.

Since we haven't seen even one photo of your shop or equipment, I suspect it is easy for you to use Sears Auto Switches on your "Figment" machines, DC, autogates, etc. Please prove us wrong.

Methinks Aaron should be paying the power company some extra money for the horrible power factor his shop must exhibit....you know...using all that imaginary ( ) power and all....

[Alan Lightstone]

Methinks Aaron should be paying the power company some extra money for the horrible power factor his shop must exhibit....you know...using all that imaginary ( ) power and all....

Imaginary. Isn't that what the i stands for in v=ir????

[Aaron Rowland]

I just typed in the CR magnetics model 9350 that you showed and $30 came out. What do to I know?\Since your shop is old how much would the parts cost into days money? I use plug strips on my workstation for 120V tools and the shop vac I mentioned with the Sears current sensors. Didn't say anything about 230 V. My point was I don't like the Sears current sensor that triggers small tool like a jig saw , router, drill and etc. . It leaves the tool hot. I had a tool fall off the bench once and it turned on when it hit the floor. I prefer to just turn the plug mold switch off so no danger of a hot tool coming alive.

For the solenoid gates I have both 120V and 240V solenoids depending on what the machine is wired for. A very short length of wire is run between the solenoid and machine. Lots of machines come with 230V wire with a plug. No problem. That's the way Europe is wired. No, I do not split a 230V line to get 115V. Not good and you are right. There was a big discussion of codes here once . Didn't really get a usable answer. The electricians tell me its up to the City or county where you live and it's all over the place. 3 different code books nationally.

Not to sure how a gate could get damaged mounted to a machine. At least not the way my shop is set up.

I've seen pic off yours many times. So why in the world would I want to show you mine? as the old saying goes.

If my posts confuse you sorry. All you have to do is ask nicely for an explanation. By the way I noticed that your cyclone must be inside your shop. All that dust collected on the bottom cone due do push through design is not good and indicates a poor seal. I used push though at one time when all I had was a 2HP blower. When I got bigger blowers with the right size impeller there was no reason to use this method. Some claim because of the spin the blower puts on the air before it enters the cyclone separation suffers. You don't use a filter and exhaust out side like I do, so no problem. Is heating the air in the winter a concern? I find it no problem. The only time push though is beneficial is when you are stuck with an undersized impeller.

I enjoyed your posts and generally agree with your comment by the way. Very informative . Thanks.

[Aaron Rowland]

I still can't see the need for a current sensor when a direct wire gets the job done. PF with the cheap power we get and the number of hours my tool run I don't worry. While the PF is much less then a fully loaded motor the motor will run cooler and last longer when run at 80% etc.

[Aaron Rowland]

My cyclone and blowers are outside next to the shop. No, not a 100 yds. Just a few feet in a small shed attached to the house. The cyclones exhaust has a damper on it but its not air tight. So cold air , especially if there is negative pressure in the shop, will flow though the blowers, pass though the cyclone , pass though the ducts and the duct work soon reaches out side temp. The gates block the air infiltration 100% or close to it

.That's just one reason. The other biggie is separating my two main runs from each other. This helps minimize SP loss.

Having the cyclone out side is nice. When running the only noise is air rushing though the ducts and you can still hear the radio. Some hoods are noisier then other however.

[Alan Schaffter]

Didn't say anything about 230 V. My point was I don't like the Sears current sensor that triggers small tool like a jig saw , router, drill and etc. . It leaves the tool hot. I had a tool fall off the bench once and it turned on when it hit the floor. I prefer to just turn the plug mold switch off so no danger of a hot tool coming alive.

?? I wonder if anyone else is confused about this. You are/were using the Sears auto-switch to "trigger small tools like a jig saw", Why are you "triggering" tools? Or did you mean to say you are/were using the Sears unit with a jig saw or other tools to turn on (trigger) a vac or DC?????

Not to sure how a gate could get damaged mounted to a machine. At least not the way my shop is set up.

Well, there are any number of ways a blast can can be bumped into, hit with a board, snagged by a cord, etc., etc. etc. but since you haven't shown us your shop, we have no idea how you are doing it, or if you even have a shop!

I've seen pic off yours many times. So why in the world would I want to show you mine? as the old saying goes.

So folks here have a better understanding of what you are attempting to describe and to gain some credibility, which based the responses by others, you don't have. Doesn't that bother you?

If my posts confuse you sorry. All you have to do is ask nicely for an explanation.

I believe a number of members here have asked nicely to see photos of your equipment- but seems you have never posted even one! Why is that?

By the way I noticed that your cyclone must be inside your shop. All that dust collected on the bottom cone due do push through design is not good and indicates a poor seal. I used push though at one time when all I had was a 2HP blower. When I got bigger blowers with the right size impeller there was no reason to use this method. Some claim because of the spin the blower puts on the air before it enters the cyclone separation suffers. You don't use a filter and exhaust out side like I do, so no problem. Is heating the air in the winter a concern? I find it no problem. The only time push though is beneficial is when you are stuck with an undersized impeller.

Wrong again, on all accounts! (1) My cyclone in at garage level, my shop is on the second floor. (2) There are absolutely no leaks nor dust on my cylcone- just a mottled zinc galvanized finish and some Bondo I put on one side to hide the seam when I thought about painting it to dress it up. (3) "Spin the blower puts on the air" Say what?!?!?!?!? Push through and a long inlet (see mine!) have been shown to improve separation. (4) Push or pull- impeller diameter is a non-factor! (5) Take a look at the bottom of my cyclone and you will see just two of the benefits of push-through: a non-collapsible, air-tight dust drum is not needed, and you can use standard trash bags that are easy to install and easy to remove. All you need to do is remove and carry the bag to the curb. There is no need to handle or get covered with dust emptying a dust drum.

[Alan Schaffter]

My cyclone and blowers are outside next to the shop. No, not a 100 yds. Just a few feet in a small shed attached to the house. The cyclones exhaust has a damper on it but its not air tight. So cold air , especially if there is negative pressure in the shop, will flow though the blowers, pass though the cyclone , pass though the ducts and the duct work soon reaches out side temp. The gates block the air infiltration 100% or close to it

So, I ask again, how is cold air getting into your shop from the DC????? Even with a leak in your "exhaust damper" if your gates "block the air infiltration 100% " there should be no air getting in the shop. Try again.

.That's just one reason. The other biggie is separating my two main runs from each other. This helps minimize SP loss.

And how does that help minimize SP loss??? Unused branch ducting and drops (with closed gates) have no impact on SP loss!!! You can only have SP loss in ducting where there is air flow!! Try again.

[Alan Schaffter]

I still can't see the need for a current sensor when a direct wire gets the job done. PF with the cheap power we get and the number of hours my tool run I don't worry. While the PF is much less then a fully loaded motor the motor will run cooler and last longer when run at 80% etc.

So, you have 110V or 220V powered solenoids wired directly to your machine switch or motor? And your blast gates are mounted on the machines. So, is all wiring protected? Is the solenoid mounted in a NEMA enclosure attached to the gate? Doesn't this make for a lot of excess equipment and wiring hanging off your machines? What is the throw and force of the solenoids you are using? What kind of linkage are you using to obtain the throw needed to operate a 6" gate? Is the solenoid strong enough to operate the gate with the DC running? Are you worried they will overheat in the enclosure?

I have none of those issues with current sensor switching and low voltage activated/low pressure air actuated blast gates. I can easily mount the blast gates wherever I want. Do you have an over-blade dust pickup? Does it have one of your auto-gates? If so, where did you mount it and how/where did you run the 220V from your saw to operate it?

Inquiring minds want to know. And as often said in most WW forums- "No pics, didn't happen!"

I'm out of popcorn, time for bed.

[Aaron Rowland]

I can't figure out why you are so afraid of power cords? Most saws and tools come with them. You do not need hard wiring unless your local code requires it which is rare. Nema box for an solenoid? I'm starting to doubt your electric expertise. Is that why you used expensive pneumatic gates?

Yes I have the required overhead blade guard and dust pick up. That was discussed in anotherr thread where I mentioned using an inline leaf blower to boost the CFM if you buy a stock one with 2-3" hose. My hose is flex 4" and I still needed the blower to get the performance I wanted. I removed the blower when I went to a new high pressure system and it wasn't needed. They are noisy as I also mentioned. They can be sound isolated with a box if that is a concern. The blade guard/DC is triggered by a manual over head 4" gate that uses a magnetic reed to operate the T/S auto gate. All low voltage 24V control system . The solenoid operated gate is 220V but could have been 120V since it's not controlled by the saw. Wired with 220V cord. There is no code problem doing this in any area I know of. Perfectly safe if the cord has proper ga for the current. One can also insert a time delay fuse if so inclined. Using conduit is not a practice idea.

For non Electrical inclined people the Solenoid is the easy way to go. For the most effective cost the $15.00 HF drill with is DIY screw drive is the best way to go. This unit runs off 12V DC from the HF battery charger that came with the drill. I listed the model and cost of the Solenoid in another thread.

I don't know your work history but at times Alan, I feel like I'm dealing with a government employee. Your fear of line cords is beyond me and worrying about breaking blast gates mounted to the machines doesn't make sense either, at least to me.

[Alan Schaffter]

I can't figure out why you are so afraid of power cords? Most saws and tools come with them. You do not need hard wiring unless your local code requires it which is rare. Nema box for an solenoid? I'm starting to doubt your electric expertise. Is that why you used expensive pneumatic gates?

Yes I have the required overhead blade guard and dust pick up. That was discussed in anotherr thread where I mentioned using an inline leaf blower to boost the CFM if you buy a stock one with 2-3" hose. My hose is flex 4" and I still needed the blower to get the performance I wanted. I removed the blower when I went to a new high pressure system and it wasn't needed. They are noisy as I also mentioned. They can be sound isolated with a box if that is a concern. The blade guard/DC is triggered by a manual over head 4" gate that uses a magnetic reed to operate the T/S auto gate. All low voltage 24V control system . The solenoid operated gate is 220V but could have been 120V since it's not controlled by the saw. Wired with 220V cord. There is no code problem doing this in any area I know of. Perfectly safe if the cord has proper ga for the current. One can also insert a time delay fuse if so inclined. Using conduit is not a practice idea.

For non Electrical inclined people the Solenoid is the easy way to go. For the most effective cost the $15.00 HF drill with is DIY screw drive is the best way to go. This unit runs off 12V DC from the HF battery charger that came with the drill. I listed the model and cost of the Solenoid in another thread.

I don't know your work history but at times Alan, I feel like I'm dealing with a government employee. Your fear of line cords is beyond me and worrying about breaking blast gates mounted to the machines doesn't make sense either, at least to me.

I'll keep this short. You are either not reading, don't understand, or choose to ignore what I say- LVC, easier, cheaper, safer- the reason why industry uses it almost exclusively!! Do you know what the terminals look like on a typical solenoid? No NEMA enclosure? What did you do, wrap them with a half dozen layers of electrical tape and call it a day?



A 220V solenoid with 24V control- Ooops, slipping up again!! It appears you have changed your story. In the older thread you said- "The Toro is wired to the cyclone by a relay so automatic turn on. " So what is it manual or automatic? Is it LVC or full voltage? If you are so fond of hot wired machinery, why didn't you wire the solenoid to the saw switch? If you have such a great DC (multiple cyclones, etc. etc.) why do you need a leaf blower at all? I don't.

Can anyone else picture what blast gate operated by a HF cordless drill and leadscrew arrangement would look like or how it would be made? You can do better than that! (Probably not!)

You are slipping up spinning your yarns- borrowing concepts posted by others, claiming they are also incorporated in your imaginary setup. I have, knowledge, experience, have done it, and posted photos of what I have done, but I never claimed expertise.

As far as I or anyone else here can tell, all you can do is spin a yarn, and not a well reasoned one at that. On most forums you would be banned as a "troll."

Again, show us just one photo of one aspect of your system. Most everybody else on this forum does! And so we are sure we are looking at a photo that is yours, put a fork and spoon in the photo along with whatever solenoid, gate, etc. you photograph.

I'm sure you will continue to spin your yarn and have an answer for everything, but you'll get no further response from me.

[Aaron Rowland]

Your making up circuit stuff again. Stop and think the details out before comments. The 220V solenoid and the cyclone and the Toro are controlled by a 24V system though relays of course. Gee, do I have to keep clearing things up for you? The solenoid was at one time directly tied to the saw switch like most of my big power tools. I didn't like this set up so changed it to the manual overhead gate. This also turns on the cyclone. I just preferred in this case to have the saw and cyclone run separately because some times I want to keep the Cyclone running and turn the saw off. In electronics there are an infinite number of ways to get thing done.

You maybe don't need a leaf blower , as most don't, but I did until I increased the SP but then again how clean is clean?. What really gave me a problem was the push though mode when the blower lost a blade. This is twice this happened and I stopped that bad, in my view, arrangement.I would not believe how much that effected dust pick up.

Nobody else can envision a HF drill on a blast gate? Not that hard if one as a bit of imagination like my pretend shop.

Showing pics? Been there and then I get Oh a rich guy uh, Lets see what your fancy tools made. That lead to anybody could make that which leads back to- we don't really need power tools- where is were I was with years ago. So if it's ok with you I will call my shop imaginary and just toss out ideas which if I had a shop I would use. So call me an imaginary troll if it makes you happy. Got to admit however in my worse nightmare I never imagined a shop on a 2nd floor. That sure doesn't work for me.

I'm out of here for a whole week to cool off. A very unproductive discussion.

[Dan Hintz]

I'm waiting for one... just one... pic of this custom-wired blast gate system. I want the pic to include the control solenoids, the motor drive system, the well-insulated wiring, etc. The pic doesn't need to include a Google map with coordinates of your location in the background, just aim the camera towards the ground. Take the pic with a disposable camera, have the local Ritz camera and have them print it out, then scan the picture back in and attach it here... you know, assuming you're soooo worried about us finding out what great equipment you have and coming to steal it