Did I apply the finish too soon after staining?

[scott vroom]

I'm curious how long it takes for stain to dry before applying a wipe on finish. Yesterday I stained a white oak desktop with General Finishes Gel stain; the instructions on the can recommended 6-8 hrs dry time in "good conditions". I let the stain dry 7-1/2 hours, and the temp was in the mid-60's. When I applied the General Finishes Arm-R-Seal with a rag I noticed some stain coming off the piece onto the rag. This morning the finish looks OK except I'm imagining some subtle blotchiness. My son says it's in my imagination. Should I have waited longer for the stain to cure? Is it normal for some stain to bleed onto the top finish wiping rag?

I'm considering resanding the wood slab and try letting the stain dry longer. I'm not under any particular time pressure and want to make sure I'm doing this right.

[Prashun Patel]

Couple points. And I'm no expert, so take w/ grain of salt:

1) The oil-based stain will wipe off a tad when an oil-based top coat is wiped on top of it. It really takes a day or two to completely dry (under normal cond's). If you brush on the top coat, the lift will be a little less. If you spray on the top, there will be no lift. Lift is mostly an issue with darker colors, in my limited experience. Typically, if stainining, I either let it dry for a long while, or spray it with a thin coat of shellac. That stops the lift. It also seals the wood a little and means less topcoat needed. Now that you've put on a coat of yr arm-r-seal, the lift will be less; however the first coat now has a tiny bit of pigment, which could lift if you reapply another topcoat too quickly. If it were me, I'd insure this by letting it dry for a day or even two. Patience always pays off for me...

2) I believe the blotchiness yr seeing is from the topcoat not yet being evenly absorbed; it might be just a sheen difference. When you get add'l topcoats on, the sheen ('blotch') should go away. White oak takes stain very well, and typically does not blotch. Blotch also makes itself known during the staining phase, when color is preferentially absorbed.

3) If after another couple coats of ArmRSeal, if you still notice some blotch, I would try to blend it by using some of your stain as a 'glaze' to blend into the surrounding areas. That has worked for me, but takes a deft touch.

[Chris Fournier]

I would not undertake the kind of finishing that you are doing if the temp was less than 70 degrees F. Relative humidity in the 40 range would be nice as well. I have a finishing room where I can tweak both the temperature and the RH. This really takes some of the horror out of finishing.

I'd say that you rushed your stain given the conditions. The blotchiness that you may be seeing is likely uneven concentrations of stain on the piece. Your topcoats will likely accentuate any uneveness in the stain.

[scott vroom]

Chris, I think you're probably correct. I'm leaning toward resanding and starting again. It's a flat slab so not a big deal really other than I lose a day. I'll pre heat the shop next time around. This project is for a paying customer and it's important to get it right.

Most of my woodworking has been paint grade cabinets, vanities, etc. I've got lots to learn about natural wood finishing I bought the Flexner book and 2 Jewitt books and they've helped.

Prashun, I have an HVLP sprayer in the shop....I'll try it on the re-do to avoid stain lifting.

[Howard Acheson]

I would allow more than the 6 hours. 12 hours or overnight would be better and safer. Oil based finishes should be applied in temperatures of 70-75 degrees and 50% relative humidity. There drying and re-coat times stated on the label are based on these parameters.

It is normal when wiping on a finish over an oil based stain that some of the pigment will loosen and color your wiping rag. Try to wipe as lightly as possible for the first coat. Subsequent coats should wipe on clear. Another option is to buy a couple of cans of Zinsser Spray Can shellac and apply a coat fo shellac. Spraying will not abrade the surface causing some of the pigment to be removed. After the shellac dries the pigment will be securely fixed to the surface. Subsequent application of your wiping varnish will not remove any color.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Howie knows more than me.....but...

I also wait overnight after applying stain [or dye]. Just seems to "fix" it better. Then, rather than the spray shellac, I pad on some extra or ultra pale shellac - 3/4# to 1# cut. I'll get an ever-so-slightest "color lift" onto the pad, but it's no where near a problem - usually nothing more than a faint tinge of color. I could never seem to get the hang of a thin, even coat of shellac with the rattle can.

I also learned - from guys here, IIRC - to switch from transtint dyes to transfast powders - that dealt a killer blow to the "lift" from a shellac coat after the dye.

Scott - sometime that you are going to use the QSWO again, you might want to try a dye followed by the gel stain...adds an underlying base color, really helps pop the grain, and the darker gel stain that follows fills the pores wonderfully - looks very nice, IMO. Just be sure to use compressed air after each step, up to the dye, to clear the fine dust out of the pores.

[Chris Fournier]

I would do the same thing that you have mentioned Scott; you may not get it right the first time but as long as you rework the finish in your shop your customer does not need to know that!

The books that you have are very helpful and will soon pay for themselves but as you have found out experience is a huge part of the journey up the learning curve. I've redone a finish or two...

As Howard has mentioned, warmer and longer is better when using oil based stains.

[David Kumm]

I have had to wait as little as 12 hr and as much as 3 or 4 days. If I am doing a wipe on wipe off finish with stain I always now give it 2 days unless humid. Seems sometimes like forever is the correct answer. Dave

[John TenEyck]

I'd listen to your son. If he can't see blotchiness, it's probably just your imagination. I don't think sanding it off is going to be an easy proposition unless you wait several days for it to cure. Stripping it would probably be easier.

I've had the same thing happen as you described with GF Walnut Gel Stain followed by Arm-R-Seal, and on the same schedule 'cause I had to get the job done. A little stain lifted onto the rag with the first coat of topcoat, but I didn't notice any blotchiness (QSWO, also). It was winter and I had my shop up to about 68 deg, and the humidity was below 50%. Another coat went on after another 8 hours and it looked great.

Do what makes you happy with the work. Good luck.

[Neal Clayton]

Typically, if stainining, I either let it dry for a long while, or spray it with a thin coat of shellac.

agree. those spray bomb zinnser cans are made for this if you don't have spray equipment.

[Scott Holmes]

Most of your questions have been answered.

I would apply the next few coats of finish and see how it looks. If you don't like it, use a chemical stripper and start over.

The water soluable dye is another solution to this issue... Shellac, brushed or wiped on will not move the water only dyes. Neither will your wipe-on poly.

[Scott T Smith]

Howie knows more than me.....but...


Scott - sometime that you are going to use the QSWO again, you might want to try a dye followed by the gel stain...adds an underlying base color, really helps pop the grain, and the darker gel stain that follows fills the pores wonderfully - looks very nice, IMO. Just be sure to use compressed air after each step, up to the dye, to clear the fine dust out of the pores.

+1. On quartersawn oak, usually a dye will yield better results than a stain. The reason is that the dye does not penetrate the medullary rays, so it accentuates the "pop" of the ray flect. A stain, on the other hand, is a coating on top of the rays, and it does not lead to increased contrast.

[Don Jarvie]

Prashun hit the nail on the head. Even if you let the stain dry for 24 hours or better you will get some residual stain on the rag as you put the topcoat on. 1st coat always looks blotchy and uneven. 2nd coat will look better and so on.

I've used the Miniwax Wipe on Poly (Oil) with great results. 4 to 5 coats puts on a nice covering and it's pretty foolproof. Just wipe it on and I wiped with the grain for the last wipe but no streaks, bubbles, etc.