Charlesworth vs Coseman Videos

[Zahid Naqvi]

I don't know when cutting a dovetail became such a big deal, I guess as soon as it became a marketing opportunity to teach it. Anyone could teach you to do it, and you could've learned it on your own pretty quickly with a critical eye to your own work and a little bit of thought. If that wasn't enough, everything you'd need to know is available for *free* on the internet, from dimensioning the rough stock to picking and setting up the tools you need.

Amen to that. But I also suspect the proliferation of these teaching DVD may have something to do with learning styles. I figured out long time ago that I am a visual learner. Even basic techniques are very difficult for me to understand from written instructions. For example, I never got the whole thing about using the reflection of a board's edge to keep a vertical cut, but one day I saw a video and it took me 10 secs to "get it". I also think the best practitioners don't always make best teachers. Robert Rozieski is one of my favorite folks to follow just because he explains/shows all the nuances so well. While some of the established masters approach teaching as if they are doing you a favor. I was fortunate to see Malouf in action once and you could see he is so passionate about sharing what he knows, and that shows up in that way he demonstrated a technique. I suspect the reason "why" someone may be doing a teaching DVD may have a bearing on how they come out. With time more and more folks are putting up video tutorials on the web and it is going to become progressively difficult for the "masters" to keep teaching basic techniques and expect folks to buy DVDs for it.

that and a $1.20 will buy you a coke

[Jim Koepke]

I don't know when cutting a dovetail became such a big deal
...

We may never know since it is believed to predate written history.

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If Rob can get a rank beginner like me to produce a joint like the one below in just to days it must speak well of his abilities as a teacher.

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Ed

This leads me back to a few of Rob's statements:

I added a page on my site, "student gallery".

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BTW, Ed was in my class last year, he represents the kind of work I find in one or two of the eight I have in each class.

And also:

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I made a comment a few years ago in a seminar that I had yet to see a properly sharpened plane or chisel show up in any of my classes, DC was in the audience and he commented that having taught since 1975 he had only seen it twice.
...

My guess is that Rob's "student gallery" only shows "the kind of work found (I find) in one or two of the eight I have in each class."

Add that to poorly sharpened tools and it is no wonder his students need a guide to show them the way.

The last time I was cutting some dovetails one saw was giving me all kinds of grief. A close inspection indicated it needed a bit of filing. This lit the proverbial light above my head as to why that saw was set aside months ago. After a sharpening session all was well again. Sure, a new saw might fix the situation much better, but this saw will do fine while I wait for the "new saw fairy."

Fortunately when I took up woodworking I found a few books on wooden joints and how to make them.

If my attempts had lead me to frustration, then I would likely be interested in taking a class promising to improve my abilities.

As it was, eventually my sharpening skills improved as have my sawing skills. I have not made a cabinet full of drawers with hundreds of "air tight" dovetails. Then again, I work mostly with pine that seems to move, warp and crack as it is being sawn.

My dovetails do look better in poplar and other hard woods.

jtk

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Chairmaking is complex, and difficult to both do and teach. Some of the greatest Windsor makers most often take only one student at a time, e.g. Curtis, Dave Sawyer, Pete Galbert. They tend to live humbly and simply, so the education is not a commodity. Not a lot of self promotion, and no teaching to the least common denominator. A week spent like that is not just sawing and chiseling to a line- it is a life experience...

That's what I did at Homestead Heritage for the Craftsman rocking chair class, a private 6-day tutorial by Stan. It was fantastic.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam: Nothing wrong with posting pictures of your work. They can be educational,and sometimes inspirational. I think pictures are great. Apparently most here do,too,since many post pictures. If it "takes you out of the moment",wait till the moment is over,then take the pictures. Pictures show more than words can in most cases.

A few years ago I started making small scenes in boxes, just because that's where I went. I posted photos on the WC design forum and only one person said he liked them (a very good person, Steve Thomson of loopy infill fame), but no one else posted any reply. I didn't like the way I reacted to that.

Pam

[george wilson]

It doesn't mean that others didn't like it. Many just don't bother to post a reply. You might have inspired someone to try making the boxes. If you posted no pictures,no one would have been inspired. I often post something nice,and get very few replies.

[Ed Looney]

Perhaps there is a real good reason the "how to DVD market" is flourishing. Could it possibly be demand for qualified instruction? It seems like there isn't any demand for the "learn it all by yourself kit". Or could it be that the poor marketing approach of learn on your own by whining about the success of others? Either way the market will decide which approach is best just like it always has.
My bet is that sour grapes is never going to sell.


Ed

[george wilson]

I have seen David's work,and it is fine. I don't think you refer to me,but both the boxes I made for Queen Elizabeth were dovetailed. I only got pictures of 1 taken,and unfortunately,it doesn't show the dovetails very well. You can be sure that Jay Gaynor examined the gifts,and would not have let them get out to her if they weren't of highest quality.

The dovetails on the Queen's box were so tight,I did not want to put glue into them. Instead,if you look at the top edges of the back corners,you will see black dots. These are ebony pins about 1/8" diameter,that I turned and drilled down through the dovetails. They can never come apart in either direction. The brass piece on the top of the box is turned to mirror the handle on the saffron pot. The feet are William and Mary style. The screws in the brass parts are fire blued iron,as was the practice in the period. They didn't use brass screws since they didn't have cold drawn brass,and small screws would have wrung off. As usual,upper management waited until beyond the last second to order this gift made,so there was just not enough time to get the brass parts silver plated. I think we got this gift done about 2 days before the presentation. Just time enough for a picture by our Audio Visual Dept..

I also made the latch on the boxes,adding the little thumb catch to make it classier. You can't buy them like that.

My toolbox has about 80 dovetails in it,including sliding dovetails(housing joints). I did not have the opportunity to go to any training classes,though I will not say that there are not those who need them.

The heavy old toolbox has been around since 1970,and has gotten moved about and beaten up a bit. My usual bad,fuzzy photos of the tool box.

[Ed Looney]

If you can already saw straight and chisel accurately,I don't think it's a big deal either. When I needed to make my first dovetails,I just did it.

George
Yes and when I need to learn how to run a machining process that I have never run before I just set it up and start. Granted I have been doing machine work for just shy of 30 years and have thousands of hours to reference when looking for answers. What you aren't seeing is that some people don't do wood work as their day job they do it as a hobby and don't have the hours of working in the trade as a foundation when they do something new. What do people do when they have little background to reference and try something new? Well the smart one's go learn from someone who has those hours of experience to speed them on their path of learning.

Ed

[george wilson]

If you read my post,I said I WON'T say that there aren't people who don't need classes. After all,some people buy plans for just about any simple project. I've seen plans for sale for toilet paper holders. What's a lear path of learning ?

I have gone into many new fields myself,and still haven't had training classes. Guess I'm not one of the smart ones?

I even defended Cosman early in this thread,when someone accused him of being without heart or soul. In fact,I did it twice.

Anyway,he asked for pictures. Too bad I seldom got around to taking pictures,not that they interrupted me,I was just never good about photographing everything,and I now wish I had been.

I know David does good work. I even made him some brass parts for planes. I don't do that if it's a waste of time,and will end up on cruddy work.

[Jim Koepke]

Not nice Jim, no cherry picking here. I only started taking pics of the 2 day 24 hour dovetail degree class a year or so ago and the only guys that don't ge tposted are those that asked not to be or they got away before I got the camera out. Have you looked at the gallery or were you just making assumptions? Here is the math on the last four classes, Denver 6/10, Chicago 7/7, Boise 7/8 and Atlanta 9/9. You (not just Jim) like to down play the results, you like to belittle the students and you are suspicious of the teacher and his motives. I read from you how easy it is, how anyone with an ounce of coordination could do it on their own and how good you are at doing it but nobody wants to show us the MONEY!!! We hear how taking pictures interrupts you (really?), nobody said nice things to me when I posted before and my pine cracks up. I'm cracking up!! Brusha Up David, show us your work!

Yes, I looked at the gallery. Some nice images and dovetails. Your saying that you have about 400 students a year and the number of images on the page working out to about the number of students that equals about 1 or 2 students in each class led me to a conclusion that may not be the correct conclusion.

I am sorry, but I am not trying to belittle your students. Unless I am mistaken, I have only said that some people need help and some struggle on their own. I am one who is pretty much self taught. I also said in a previous post that this is not something that will work for everyone.

You mentioned never seeing a student bring a properly sharpened plane or chisel to class. My attempts to sharpen plane blades and chisels would have been in that camp a few years ago. If a person can not sharpen a chisel, they likely will not be able to make a decent dovetail with a dull chisel.

I have not said it was easy. If my memory serves me my struggles have been related openly. You attribute to me accusations I have not made and things I have not said. That is not a way to win anyone's favor.

I have posted many pictures and have never said they interrupt my work. If people comment that is OK, if not, that is also OK. Compared to a lot of the work I have seen here my work usually doesn't even rate a mediocre. Just the same, I am happy with what I have done. Even some of my mediocre work has opened up new ideas to others. Even though they were a little crude and not original to me, some folks had never seen dovetail joints shaped like hearts, simple yet fun.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...t-amp-Practice

If you have read many of my posts, you would know that I am of the thought that people should "give it a go" after all, what is there to lose? A person will likely gain something from the doing and nothing from the sitting and fretting. A weekend trying to cut dovetails does not a lifetime of bad habits make.

One quote from my last post says a lot:

If my attempts had lead me to frustration, then I would likely be interested in taking a class promising to improve my abilities.

I do not see how that, or much else that I have posted, is casting suspicion on what you do. Some people need guides or instructors, some people can find their way without them.

If you find that or anything else from me offensive, then I am sorry.

jtk

[Pam Niedermayer]

It doesn't mean that others didn't like it. Many just don't bother to post a reply. You might have inspired someone to try making the boxes. If you posted no pictures,no one would have been inspired. I often post something nice,and get very few replies.

I wanted a conversation about what I was trying to do, to guide me. I realized that most people in woodworking forums basically aren't interested. That's OK, I don't take it personally; but it also means that I can't see my way clear to post photos of my work, waste of time and effort.

Pam

[Jim Koepke]

It seems like there isn't any demand for the "learn it all by yourself kit". Or could it be that the poor marketing approach of learn on your own by whining about the success of others? Either way the market will decide which approach is best just like it always has.

Is someone whining about the success of others?

I thought of Sawmill Creek as on of the best tools in the learn it by yourself kit. Just look at all the videos on YouTube teaching people how to do it yourself. It is just that many of the individuals involved are not trying to make money at it. Instead, they are trying to give away what they know. Bob Smalser and I posted information on things one can do to rehabilitate old planes. Did you see anything from him or me "whining" that others published books on the subject or that Johnny Kleso has a reprint on his web site of another article on fixing up old planes? I don't think so. A few members here have sent me PMs that they have copied and printed some of my posts for their own use. Do I whine about that? No, inside it makes me happy that someone else has benefited from my efforts.

BTW, one asked permission, just for the record anything I have posted does not require asking my permission to print and use or share. If you are going to publish it and get rich, then I am interested in a percentage. If you can figure out a way to get rich off of it, then I don't even require that much of a percentage.

BTW, DIY is big business for mass marketing by the likes of HD, Lowes and Ace Hardware.

Oh, don't forget the DIY Network, they aren't whining, they are doing.

jtk

[Zahid Naqvi]

My wife and I have come to an agreement. She now encourages me to buy all the woodworking videos I want, the longer the better. My side of the bargain is that when I put the video in, she lies down on the couch and I give her a foot rub or scalp massage while I watch. Her falling asleep means I've done my part!

The most useful post in the whole thread

[Jim Neeley]

The most useful post in the whole thread

No doubt, Zahid!!! And its corollary... if my son (and I) use a new tool to make something especially for mamma, she feels it was a good investment!!

[Ed Looney]

Is someone whining about the success of others?
BTW, DIY is big business for mass marketing by the likes of HD, Lowes and Ace Hardware.

Oh, don't forget the DIY Network, they aren't whining, they are doing.

jtk

Jim
As Paul Harvey would say, "and now for the rest of the story". Mike Holmes is getting rich fixing the work of "contractors" who watched a couple of episodes of DIY or spent a few hours on Youtube and thought they could lay tile, do the plumbing and rewire the home.

Ed