Which do you prefer? LN or Wenzloff Dovetail Saw?

[Pedder Petersen]

The slotted back was slotted only about 1/4" deep,it seemed. If I were to make a slotted back,I'd slot it as deep as a folded back so it would have the same area gripping as a folded back. I never did have a backsaw come back to me from the big bunch we made for the Historic Trades.

I could be wrong,but I think epoxy is relied upon to hold the blade in the slotted back. Apparently,it doesn't always hold well enough. I'd think Loctite would be a better choice.

Hi George,

Lie-Nielsen uses Locktite I think 270. They and Independent saws before make saws that way about 30 years. I yet have to hear about problems with the slotted back. But I've ssen a lot of saws where the bowed spine opens up.

The circular saw blades, that are used to cut the slot, can't cut as deep as you want. On folded spines I see, the blades are hold only by the lowest 3-5mm. So the slot will have more contact.

Cheers Pedder

[Pedder Petersen]

I see a lot of posts about people bunching up LN dovetail saws, and I haven't yet seen that with MW's saws.

Hi David,

where did you see the posts? I follow the fora (SMC, woodnet, woodcentral and a few other) for 5 years now. And I don't remember one post. But that is my mind probably.

Cheers
Pedder

[Chris Griggs]

I have the LN 15ppi rip carcass that I use as my dovetail saw. Two things to note.

1. I definitely love the extra length (11in). If you gang cut your tails (saw two tail boards at once), the extra length is quite nice

2. However, if I were to do it again I would get a saw with a folded back. The slotted backs are heavy and the folded back saws I've used seem better balanced especially if your like me and enjoy a longer dovetail saw.

But that's just me...

[David Weaver]

There was just one here last week where someone mentioned they got one loose, but put it back. I had assumed it was the plate getting loose and pushing back in the spine. I could be wrong.

The one I recall most vividly was a schwartz blog article that came out around when the .015" plate became available (as well as the big .020 tenon saw), and the saw makers (and armchair pundits) were commenting on the fitness of a thin plate for general users. Chris mentioned that he had (or maybe that he occasionally has?) a ham handed user bunch one up at a seminar, and LN fixed it for him.

I don't think it would be an issue for a user with some experience or a light grip (and not most others, either) no matter what they were sawing in, and just so it's clear I'm not ripping on LN, I would probably order a plain 15 point .015" plate LN dovetail saw from LN these days if I were ordering a saw. it's cheap (in relative terms) and they have it to you right away and have as prompt of customer service as I have ever seen.

Also, as i mentioned, I think seeing these few stories and having them attached to LN might be just a matter of volume, probably likely even that it is.

(but i still like the folded spine, I will admit)

[David Weaver]

I suspect that at some point in the near future, we're going to find out just how deeply a spine can be slotted!

[Casey Gooding]

I owned an Adria prior to purchasing an original Independence Dovetail saw. I liked the Adria but preferred the longer length and slightly shorter height of the Independence. I also simply preferred the way it cut and felt. I sold the Adria pretty soon after and have not regretted it at all, though it is a fine saw.

[Pedder Petersen]

Hi David,

I remember the blog of Chris Schwarz quite well. It was a hymne on the well customer service of Lie-Nielsen. He mad it very clear, that the kinking was not a faugth of the saw but of the user. Rob Cosman has a good analogy of holding a dovetail saw like the hand of a baby.

I didn't found the other entry by now.

Cheers
Pedder

[Andrew Pitonyak]

still yearn for a LN, a Wenzloff. and a Bad Axe by Mark Harrell.

Love my LN and I have a Bad Axe on order. Paying for a bunch of pretty extras. I like pretty tools. I sometimes use them pretty hard, but I usually clean them up and store them well so they stay looking very nice. I have looked at the Wenzloff a few times. I keep thinking that I should try a kit.

[David Weaver]

Hi David,

I remember the blog of Chris Schwarz quite well. It was a hymne on the well customer service of Lie-Nielsen. He mad it very clear, that the kinking was not a faugth of the saw but of the user. Rob Cosman has a good analogy of holding a dovetail saw like the hand of a baby.

I didn't found the other entry by now.

Cheers
Pedder

Pedder, maybe the person who said it here last week will come forward. I can't remember who it was.

I wasn't mentioning who was at fault (subjective), just that the saw was bunched up (objective).

Again, I'm not ripping on LN. I have more LN tools than any other type, and I would have one of their saws (i'm pretty confident that nothing I ever do with a dovetail saw would bunch any part of it up). Just made the comment that for reasons I may not understand (having built a few folded back saws and no slotted back saws) that I've seen discussion of this before.

Maybe it's due to the fact that thin plates are less common on the saws by makers who use folded backs?

[george wilson]

I,too,have many LN tools. Between what I had at work,and what I have at home,I think I must have bought about 9 planes. Can't recall all the ones at work. Never bought their saw,though,as I have made plenty of my own. I personally haven't seen an LN bunch up. Just heard stories about them. When I got my old closed handle Groves back saw,it had a big wave in the blade from slipping. I jerked the wave out and the blade is now perfectly straight. It is an antique with a folded back. One of my very favorite saws,and certainly so from the beautiful handle on it.

I ran a little Loctite down the edge of the folded backs of my saws just for security,as all different skill level craftsmen would be using them,including some who use fairly wet wood. Never had one come back to the shop,except for sharpening. I had my own way of clenching the backs on them. I'd squeeze the backs down narrower than the blade thickness(made an accurate press to do that). Then,I made a bevel on the top side of the blades,so as to not shear the brass off as the blade was pressed in. This gave me a good,tight clench. The Loctite was extra insurance. I just ran the tip of the tube down the edge of the backs,and let it wick into the back. You could not see any Loctite on the blade or back.

I also squeezed both ends of my backs completely shut,then ground the backs on the belt grinder to give them the final finish. Some were then buffed. My personal ones were freehand ground with slightly tapering facets,and left with a fine ground finish.

Can LN clench their blades with a rather shallow slot that the blade goes into? Or,are they relying solely on the adhesive to hold the blade in?

[Tony Shea]

Can LN clench their blades with a rather shallow slot that the blade goes into? Or,are they relying solely on the adhesive to hold the blade in?

That is a good question George. I'd be interested to know how they are held.

And David, understood that was not a rip on LN in any way, just was curious about what you meant. Even if they do have an issue such as you stated, their customer service will absolutely take care of this issue without any questions at all. I have had a couple deallings with their customer service and it's just top notch. I bought a used #5 locally for a very cheap price but was in real rough shape with an out of flat sole. Brought it to LN store personally and they completely rehauled it free of charge, including a freshly ground sole. I got the plane back in less than a week looking like it came off the shelf. The blade was the only telling factor that said it was the same plane. I've also had a block plane redone in the same fashion. Just an awesome company to deal with.

[Frank Carnevale]

Great, now I see the Bad Axe dovetail saw and things are totally spiraling out of control. Now the question is do I become a tool snob and go with Bad Axe or go with the LN? I say tool snob because the bad axe is just a great looking saw also. ugh.Spend the extra 100 or no...hmmm

[eric mah]

I purchased a LN dovetail and tenon saw off a guy who was downsizing. Kind of mentioned I may have to send it back for sharpening as he had no luck with them. Took it over to my buddies' place for a tryout session. We cut thru poplar and oak and neither of us had a problem. It seems that operator error was the issue.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I ordered a really really pretty saw!

[Derek Cohen]

Let's see, I may be able to shed some like on some of the different dovetail saws.

I have a LN dovetail that is about 8 years old now. When I first got it, it was really difficult to start, and I did not master it. So it was put aside for some years. It was essentially replaced by a Independence Tools dovetail saw that I bought unused on eBay, the forerunner of the LN. It was promptly sharpened by Mike Wenzloff, so is to all intent and purposes a Wenzloff dovetail saw. Comparing these two saws (see my Website for the review) I loved the way the IT cut (smooth and controlled) but preferred the thicker handle of the LN. Skip forward some years. I returned to the LN. Deciding that the rough cutting was due to too much set, I filed off all the set. The saw starts easily enough for me (I've obviously learned something over the years ), but now it cuts straight and with a fine, smooth kerf. It does need wax to prevent binding, but is a great saw to use. I like the thicker handle.



I have a Wenzloff dovetail, but it is a little harder to compare directly as it is a thinner plate (.18) and 20 ppi. It is a very smooth performer. It has the nicest handle of all my saws. The difference with the LN is that the Wenzloff has rounded edges, and just feels more comfortable.



There is also an Eccentric Tools carcase saw. The handle was custom built for my hand (which is 10cm across the palm for those seeking a comparison). This is the best size and makes the others feel a touch pinched.



All bar the Eccentric Tools are slotted.

The Wenzloff is 3/4" wide and slotted 5/16" deep.
The LN and IT are 3/4" wide and slotted 1/4" deep.
The Eccentric Tools is approximately 5/8" wide and the blade is impossible to see how deeply it is bedded.

Regards from Perth

Derek