Paul Sellers video on hand saw sharpening

[Charles Bjorgen]

This video on saw sharpening by Sellers suggests that most saws can be sharpened as Rip in what he shows as a progressive tooth pattern. It's a half hour plus long. He also suggests filing a "micro bevel" pattern on the teeth that results in the saw staying sharp longer. I'd be curious to read your comments on this.
Here's the link to his site but you should be able to find it on You Tube.

http://paulsellers.com/videos/

[David Weaver]

I personally like to have saws filed both ways, on a longer panel saw at something like 10 points, a rip filed saw can be a little harder on the backside of the cut (though it's anecdotal, you can see a little bit of blown out grain on his middle cut). Not a big deal if you're sawing something and you know what will be the back and the front (likely do with a saw that fine).

Progressive rake is not uncommon in older backsaws. Works fine if you have a saw that's hard to start.

Whatever it takes to get the work done.

(I do like that sellers is encouraging people to sharpen their own saws, beginner or not, and that he's not going over the top with any "have to joint it hard every time you sharpen it" stuff)

Odd choice of naming a video "masterclass" and doing basic saw sharpening. I thought that word was reserved for stuff like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_ACiOuYkA.

[Chris Griggs]

My main joinery saws are filed mostly for rip (though I keep a bit of fleam in mine, so there sorta hybrid filed). Smaller toothed saws crosscut pretty cleanly with little to no fleam and an aggressive rake unless your really using alot of downward force. For my hand/panel saws though I'd rather have dedicated rip and xcut. Also, for joinery xcuts where clean really matters (e.g. tenon shoulders) a fine xcut saw is nice (though not required if you leave a bit of the knife line and cut to the final mark with a chisel).

The great thing about learning to file your own saws is you can try this stuff pretty easily and if you don't like it just add in fleam as needed.

[Charlie Stanford]

This video on saw sharpening by Sellers suggests that most saws can be sharpened as Rip in what he shows as a progressive tooth pattern. It's a half hour plus long. He also suggests filing a "micro bevel" pattern on the teeth that results in the saw staying sharp longer. I'd be curious to read your comments on this.
Here's the link to his site but you should be able to find it on You Tube.

http://paulsellers.com/videos/

Sellers always ends up making sense. That said I own one 28" rip saw, one 22" crosscut panel saw, one 12" crosscut tenon saw, and one 8" rip(ish) dovetail saw (I think I might have put a little fleam on it). They're all filed basically as they came from the manufacturer and seem to work just fine. If there is a problem, it's with this Indian and not his arrow.

[Kees Heiden]

I've heard about the microbevel from another guy too. Seems to be a good idea indeed, but I haven't tried it yet, maybe next time when I need to sharpen my big ripper.

And I do like how my crosscut handsaws cut, too much to get rid of them because mr. Sellers says I don't need them .

Like Chris wrote, sharpen your own saws and try whatever you like.

[David Weaver]

Back when you could get bargains on the FTJ newsletter sales, they had a rip saw like that one that sellers has in the video for $32. I bought it instantly. When it showed up, it had teeth that probably had about 10 degrees of rake, and they were shallow cut. bizarre. But the top of the teeth had a tiny part that had been filed to zero rake and they were flattenened a little bit like sellers does at the end of the video. Saw worked pretty well like that. I won't go to that kind of effort since it takes so little time to refresh a saw with a single pass of a file, but it was interesting and worked far better than I would've guessed.

[Jim Koepke]

Just goes to show that there is more than one way to get something done.

Having tried a few different tooth profiles on my saws I will likely stick with filing some saws for crosscut. One of my saws is a bit of a hybrid. It cuts fine both rip and crosscut. In some pieces it still creates a touch more blow out on the back side of the cut than I like.

jtk

[Nathan Wertman]

I’ve watched a ton of videos from Mr. Sellers. He always files rip because he uses a ‘knife wall’ for any and all crosscut actions. Since he deeply scores the work on all 4 sides of the cut, there is no splintering. I’m still new to all of this, but I started with this approach and I like the results thus far. It also helps keep the number of saws in the till down a bit. As a beginner, that helps keep the cost down.

This video is from his online course ‘Woodworking Masterclass’. This video is from the tools and techniques section and not meant to be part of the master class series.

[Kees Heiden]

With a crosscut saw you also get splinters on the back side. Just a little less. But the cut is smoother. And to my feeling it is quite a bit faster.

Oh well, use what ever you like

[Chris Griggs]

But the cut is smoother. And to my feeling it is quite a bit faster.

Yes! That's my feeling exactly. This is why I care more about fleam in my handsaws then my smaller toothed backsaws.

[Jim Koepke]

He always files rip because he uses a ‘knife wall’ for any and all crosscut actions. Since he deeply scores the work on all 4 sides of the cut, there is no splintering.

Many times this works fine on one side of the cut but not the other. Often my cuts are made so both sides of the cut will be finished cuts.

In softwoods a shallow fleam angle with high ppi will reduce the chip out enough to allow a quick swipe with a block plane to make a piece presentable. If it doesn't need to be real smooth using a shooting board can be kept at a minimum.

jtk

[Mike Allen1010]

I appreciate and respect what Paul Sellers is doing in his handsaw sharpening video to make selecting and sharpening hand saws more accessible for woodworkers.

Specifically, by filing most saws in a rip tooth only configuration he makes sharpening more approachable for the beginning sawyer as rip style teeth are easier to file than crosscut style teeth (with the added dimension of fleam).

In addition, by using a graduated rake angle that is less aggressive at the toe and more aggressive towards the heel woodworkers can do quality work with fewer saws. The graduated rake theoretically makes a coarser pitch saw more versatile --because the reduced rake angle at the toe makes the saw easier to start (similar to one with a finer pitch), but still retains the speed of the coarser pitch.

Different woodworkers have different objectives; some may want to invest in the least amount of kit necessary to do a given task (e.g. "I cut everything with three saws"), while others may enjoy becoming more deeply involved in the finer points (some might say minutia) of a given hand tool skill and related tools. I also agree with the other posters above that encouraging folks to learn to sharpened their own saws is a great "gateway" skill that allows hand tool users to experiment with what works best for them.

Based on that understanding, I wanted to share a slightly different perspective. IMHO there is a significant functional advantage in both the sawing experience and the finished result in using dedicated crosscut and rip style saws, rather than relying on a rip style tooth with a Progressive rake for everything, for all full-size and panel saws and any backsaw <12 points per inch.

The rationale for this perspective is that at the point of contact between the cutting edge of the tooth and the wood, ripping and crosscutting teeth perform two very different functions; the "knife-like" points of crosscut teeth are much better suited to severing the long fibers of the wood in crosscutting, while the "plane-like" cutting edges of rip style teeth are better suited for Plowing along the grain in a rip cut. To be sure any hybrid - halfway between these two configurations is a compromise. In my view this compromise is perfectly effective in finer pitch and thinner plate backsaws, but not effective in wider/larger un-backed saws where the kerf is relatively larger.

Personally, I prefer dedicated rip and crosscut configurations regardless of the size the saw as I think they simply perform better -- more accurate and a smoother sawn surface. However, I have a range of saws, which I recognize is not possible or maybe even desirable for everyone.

At one time, I did use a progressively graduated rake on full-size handsaw's, but have since gone back to a consistent rake angle for the entire tooth line. I experimented with more rake at the first 3 inches of the toe, standard rake for the rest of the saw, and graduated rake at both the heel and toe.

I believe the rationale for a progressive rake is twofold;

A) Reducing the rake angle at the toe (and potentially the heel) reduces the likelihood you will "catch a tooth" at the moment of highest risk -- the beginning and the end of the stroke, when the motion of the saw is slower.

B) The reduced rake at the toe makes it easier to start the cut on the layout line because the lower angle of attack reduces the likelihood the cutting edge of the teeth will "grab" prematurely, therefore causing the cut not to start on the layout line.

I've found this rationale is flawed (at least for me) on both points;

* I don't have a problem "catching a tooth" anywhere in the stroke, and further I think few people do provided the rest of the set up is appropriate -- consistent set, tooth height, spacing, breasted tooth line,etc. This is based on my own experience and the old saws I restore; those that have solid fundamentals consistent set, tooth height/spacing, breasted tooth line etc., rarely have kinked or bent plates. Conversely the reverse is also true.

* I don't use the toe of a full-size handsaw to start a cut -- that means my hand is at least 26 inches away from the cutting surface I'm trying to control and I'm not that coordinated. I start my cuts with the teeth right in front of the tote because it's easier for me to put them right where I want -- next to the layout mark.

As a consequence, I believe reducing the rake angle anywhere on the tooth line to less than what is "optimal" for a given sawing task, reduces the performance of the saw without providing any compensating benefit. I'm sure others will disagree, this is just my personal experience.

I sure don't have any ax to grind here - far from it. I believe Paul Sellers' approach to saw selection/sharpening is perfectly valid. FWIW, my intent is simply to share an alternative perspective that may be helpful for those hand tool users who place a higher value on the benefits that may come from a slightly more traditional approach to sharpening saws, rather than the benefits of doing the most with the fewest saws.

All the best, Mike

[Kees Heiden]

You worded it nicely and I feel the same Mike. Crosscutting with a ripsaw feels like your saw is blunt. And indeed, like you, I start my cut with the back quarter or so of my saw. Never meassured it, you know, but certainly not the toe end.

But Paul has a point, learning to file a crosscut saw is quite another game. Not unsurmountable difficult, but definitely more difficult then a ripsaw.

[Charles Bjorgen]

As the thread starter I really appreciate all the comments it has generated. I'm still new at this but have managed to file a few saws, test them out to see the resulting progress and to then see where I might have gone wrong. Sellers' video, if nothing else, encourages me to keep at it.

[lowell holmes]

My first quality saw was a LN dovetail saw. As a result, I had no choice but to crosscut with a rip saw.
I have both crosscut and rip saws, but if I am making just one crosscut, it will likely be with the rip saw.

Of course, my first foray into handtools was at Homestead Heritage. Paul Sellers was the master woodworker there.
His skil is astounding.

As I posted ealier, Tage Frid (RIP) sharpened all of his saws as rip saws.