Gabardi and Sons

[Chris Vandiver]

Does anyone know if Gabardi and Sons(infill plane makers)is still in business?

[Mark Baldwin III]

As far as I know, he is still in business. Matt and I have talked quite a bit this spring, and he didn't indicate that he was going out of business. It's been a few weeks since we last spoke, though. He's a good guy, and really helpful.

[Bruce Page]

There is an active thread on the subject over at WoodNet.

You might want to check it out if you haven’t already.

[Mark Baldwin III]

There is an active thread on the subject over at WoodNet.

You might want to check it out if you haven’t already.

Well, I hope its nothing as serious as that. Matt struck me as an honest, stand up guy. Hopefully everything's OK, and he's only hit a minor bump in the road. I would hate to see a bunch of dissatisfied customer's and a ruined reputation.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Hey Mark, if you have contact with him you may want to point out to him about the discussions on woodnet and here. Such things can cause some serious damage to one's reputation. Reminds me of another infill kit seller (Shepard I think) who ran into some business problems and it got ugly at the end. I hate to see any tool maker run into business issues.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Hey Mark, if you have contact with him you may want to point out to him about the discussions on woodnet and here. Such things can cause some serious damage to one's reputation. Reminds me of another infill kit seller (Shepard I think) who ran into some business problems and it got ugly at the end. I hate to see any tool maker run into business issues.

My contact with Matt is not much more than customer and business. We just happened to have a friendly e-mail conversation that spanned a few weeks and he shared a lot of insight with me. I had planned to e-mail him tomorrow, but just sent one out a little while ago. If/when I hear back from him, I'll let you know. I agree with you, Zahid, I would hate to see anything turn bad. Coming from a family that spent many years in the small business world, tough times can hit like a whirl wind and your whole world can come crashing down in a heart beat. I always try and hope for the best.

[Kris Ingmanson]

Rescinding a Recommendation: Gabardi & Sons

http://lostartpress.wordpress.com/

Chris Schwarz says he has heard from several customers and a creditor that Matt is no longer returning calls or emails. When Chris' inquiry was also ignored he asked that his recommendation be removed from the Gabardi & Sons website, which is still there as of now.

[David Weaver]

Chris did the right thing. There is so much pull with his recommendations that if he didn't come out plainly like he did, people would keep sending money. I'm sure he knows more than we know, but even if he didn't, it'd still be the right thing to do.

There is a lesson to learn here, about payment for custom work, but I don't want to paint with a broad brush and possibly injure other folks who may take payment in full up front and always deliver.

I learned the lesson the hard way on a custom instrument several years ago.

[george wilson]

Taking too large a cash payment up front just reduces the sense of reward the craftsman is going to receive at the end. I just don't think it is good psychology to take a big down payment. If something does go wrong,it also makes it difficult or impossible to repay several customers. I take nothing from established customers. I suggest taking just enough money to insure that the customer is committed to buying the item when it is finished.

Williamsburg would instantly refund money without any good reason. We were stuck a number of times with custom ordered instruments. One time we made a cittern with the lady's initials in the rose in the soundhole. When we contacted her boyfriend,who ordered it(an airline pilot) he canceled the order because they had broken up! That was a pain!! We had to remove the laboriously made rose and make another. Another time,I made a violin. The old man who had ordered it had even written the V.P. of the whole dept. to hurry things along. When I got the instrument done,he cancelled the order,because his wife had made him buy a new house. THAT was really aggravating. Especially as I had been put under pressure like that. The guy had even said he was very old,and hinted that he was dying!!!

I think that a non refundable reasonable sized down payment with a contract is in order for customized work,but not too large an amount.

[David Weaver]

Taking too large a cash payment up front just reduces the sense of reward the craftsman is going to receive at the end.

Not to mention (totally unrelated to this) if a "more important" or larger order comes in, the customer can just be strung along because the incentive to give them priority goes away. I learned the lesson by paying for a guitar order in full from a company I had bought two off-the-rack instruments from. Every time a new order came in, my stuff went to the back of the line, and eventually became an afterthought or nuisance, apparently, to the maker to finish since the incentive was gone. They eventually rushed it, sort of a wait wait wait wait, ...hurry up! kind of thing and now I have a poorly made (actually worse than that, defective and not ethically sellable) guitar.

I wouldn't have returned the deposit to the two folks you're mentioning. Ultimately, the customer still has responsibility when placing the order. It goes both ways, but there's a reasonable middle ground that should maximize the chance that everyone stays honest and is optimally incented.

[george wilson]

Those airline pilots were always buying things. Had a lot of money,no doubt. But shouldn't buy 4 figure items for iffy relationships. His girlfriend had had me make the guy a nice brass miter plane previously. We all had lunch together at the King's Arms Tavern. I slipped the waiter the plane in its wooden case,and had him bring it to the table. Guess she wasted her money.

[Jon van der Linden]

Payment schemes for custom items vary a lot. But just try and order a "custom" piece of furniture from a furniture store without payment in full. I don't know of any around here that will take anything less than full payment, I'm sure there are other schemes in other places.

What about ordering cabinetry? Very common to have either a 50% to start and the balance on or prior to delivery, or 30% to start and 30% progress, and balance on delivery. Not to mention charges for changing specs in mid production, or storage fees for clients that don't make final payment or aren't "ready" for the cabinets... that will never happen right?

Timelines are also critical to having a good outcome in any agreement. An acquaintance hired a landscape architect to create a design, which after months of waiting wasn't forthcoming... the architect stopped communicating (and didn't answer phone calls etc.) but delivered the plan almost a year later... and then placed a lien on the house to receive payment. There was no time limit in the agreement and so the architect received payment.

Personally I divide payment schemes into a two main categories 1) Items that will be completed within 6-8 weeks and have a moderate price (full payment) 2) Items with longer timelines or higher prices where there will be various options for deposit/progress payments.

It's really difficult to know if you're dealing with crooks like David was with his guitar, and almost impossible to prevent unless they understand that you're going to be a problem from the getgo, which usually means they won't take the job! I think these kinds of problems are very common in construction. Recently I was giving some advice on contractors to an acquaintance who had just purchased a house, his response was "Contractors are thieves and crooks, I know, my father is one!"

[george wilson]

I hate dealing with contractors just about worse than anything!!! Getting my building done TO SPEC and following the drawings I took weeks to make were like pulling teeth. The contractor had a bunch of jobs going on,and supervision on this job was incredibly sloppy. I finally got things done right,but it was uphill all the way. Even getting them to put the stairs at the correct angle was a big deal,though I used a standard stair template,and gave clear directions for it. Mexicans were sent who didn't speak a word of English,and my Spanish does not include technical terms like "exhaust fan",etc.. NO one was there to direct them except me. I couldn't help but wonder if they were legal!

These guys presented themselves as born again fundamentalist Christians.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I have one item I make only special order because it is labor intensive and I allow some customization. I take a full 100% deposit except for repeat customers who have a history with me or are members of the Old Tools list. Granted that while my quoted delivery at time of order can vary depending on work load it has never been more than 7 weeks even at the busiest of times. The worst I have done on delivery was 2 days late on a quoted 5 week delivery. I find that the up front money helps separate the serious from those who order and then cancel immediately. I don ot start work until the money is received. For my standard products I maintain stock and ship within 1 Postal Service shipping day excepting weekends. I don't make tools as my primary income, but I don't run a charity either. A clearly defined and written policy protects all involved and removes MOST chances for misunderstanding. I chose my way and that does not in the least effect the validity of the way other folks choose to operate. Different products, different circumstance, and different needs means to me that there is no realy right or wrong about deposits.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I'm a bit disappointed right now, but I'm going to give Matt a little more time. I sent a down payment on a small smoother back at the beginning of May, understanding that it was going to take some time. I paid with pay-pal, so I have a route for filing a complaint through them. My investment is considerably smaller than some others, and I understand that they are angry. I was making a squeeze to buy the plane as it was, and my money could be well placed into other interests.
In the end, I hope Matt finds a way to right things with his customers. It may do little to repair his reputation, though. Trust is a tricky thing, and once broken is hard to mend. I'm going to hold out hope just a little longer.