Frameless Cabinet build help

[Bob Judge]

This is my 1st post and I hope it makes sense. I have been doing alot of research and looking for help. I am going to build about 12 base cabinets, a pantry cabinet and a couple of upper cabinets.

My wife and I are building frameless kitchen cabinets out of veneered 3/4 birch plywood and have a few questions. I am going to make the back 3/4 as well since i have the wood already. We like the look of the frameless cabinets and all the base cabinets are going to have drawers using Blum Tandem Box with the tip on for easy push opening. I am new to woodworking but have gotten a lot of the right tools including a Felder table saw, shaper ( no shaper bits yets), jointer and planer combo with the swing arm, Festool routers and sansders, etc.. I am sure I will have lot more questions as I go along, but I want to build a couple of cabinets and a pantry this weekend.

I bought the Danny Proulx book. He uses Melamine and I am using Plywood and I can't find anything to answer if it OK to use the same butt joints Proulx for plywood.

Here I go,

1) When making the base cabinets, can I screw the sides and the backs directly to the bottom using the same butt joint as Proulx? In the book Proulx screws his sides into the bottom from the side with butt joints. Do I screw the side into the bottom, from the side or lay the side ON the bottom and screw the side into the bottom. (For 24" wide cabinet do I make the bottom 22 1/2 if screwing the sides into or make the bottom 24" wide and lay the side on the bottom and pocket screw?) What is the answer here?

2) If so what screws should I use?

3) ) I have a Kreg jig, should I use pocket screws instead? (I have found nothing about using pocket screws and how to put together the sides and bottoms on cabinets, plenty on frames)

4) If I use pocket screws, where do I put the pocket screws? On the bottom piece of the sides and back?

5) Since I am using 3/4 for the back, can I screw the back directly into the wall?

6) Thoughts on using countertop brackets

6) THoughts on using adjustable legs? Or should i make the toe kick frame? I am leaning towards the legs.

7) What type of finish should I apply to the inside of the plywood?

After the cabinet build I will be making the drawer fronts out of curly maple and possibly mahogany. My wife wants the look of guitars. I did get some inspiration from Linear Fine woodworking (google them), but they use veneers and I am going to use real wood to finish.

I've been here reading alot and will be happy to post pictures as well.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Bob

[George Gyulatyan]

I am very new to woodworking as well. One book that I've found great for cabinet making is Bob Lang's "The Complete Kitchen Cabinetmaker". He covers both frameless and FF cabinets, including joinery with all sheet goods (plywood, MDF, particleboard/melamine), various ways of building drawer boxes pointing out what joinery to use with which materials, etc. Very detailed and well written book, covering all the bases, rather than few materials and FF cabinets like most other books I've seen.

[Bas Pluim]

Answers in bold below. There are dozens of ways to build cabinets. I've used pocket screws, ordinary screws, biscuits and dowels. The joinery is not as important as cutting all the panels to the right size and square. The sliding table saw you bought will be a big help.

1) When making the base cabinets, can I screw the sides and the backs directly to the bottom using the same butt joint as Proulx? In the book Proulx screws his sides into the bottom from the side with butt joints. Do I screw the side into the bottom, from the side or lay the side ON the bottom and screw the side into the bottom. (For 24" wide cabinet do I make the bottom 22 1/2 if screwing the sides into or make the bottom 24" wide and lay the side on the bottom and pocket screw?) What is the answer here?

Either way will work. If you attach the side panels to the bottom panel (as opposed to putting the sides on top of the bottom panel), it means you have one less exposed edge to deal with. Now, this only really matters at the end of a bank of cabinets, because the sides aren't visible on the interior cabinets.

You can use the same kind of butt joints.


2) If so what screws should I use?
Regular wood screws. I suggest you get a big box of square drive wood screws from McFeelys.

3) ) I have a Kreg jig, should I use pocket screws instead? (I have found nothing about using pocket screws and how to put together the sides and bottoms on cabinets, plenty on frames)
Pocket screws work great. I've built several upper cabinets that are held together by just pocket screws, no glue. The good thing is that you can drill all the pocket holes in a batch, and use the right angle clamps to hold things together for assembly. I'd get at least two of these clamps.

4) If I use pocket screws, where do I put the pocket screws? On the bottom piece of the sides and back?
I would drill the pocket holes in the bottom- and back panels. That way, they are hidden. This is another reason to follow Danny's build approach of putting the sides against the bottom panel. If you do it the other way around, you'd have to put the pocket holes in the sides where again they could be visible at the end of a run.

5) Since I am using 3/4 for the back, can I screw the back directly into the wall?
Yes. A French cleat system can make installation easier, but strength-wise, you're fine.

6) Thoughts on using countertop brackets
Depends on the countertop. There are lots of ways to attach the top, including simple wooden blocks & screws.

6) THoughts on using adjustable legs? Or should i make the toe kick frame? I am leaning towards the legs.
I've used the legs. It's convenient, since you don't have to worry about the toekick while building the carcass. It's most useful when the floor isn't level, but otherwise it's a bit of an overkill. I suggest you follow Danny's approach and use the legs, why make your first project any more difficult than it needs to be?

7) What type of finish should I apply to the inside of the plywood?
I suggest shellac or water-based polyurethane. The smell of oil-based finishes takes a long time to dissipate, especially in drawers. I strongly suggest you finish the inside panels before assembly. Use masking tape to cover the areas you plan to glue.

[Troy John]

I prefer to use confirmat screws, they are much stronger and hold the parts together better. I would stay away from pocket screws as they only have about 5/8" of hold on the screw.
The 3/4" back is fine but just adds weight to hang cabinets.
I prefer to use a detached ladder toe kick, set it first after fitting and scribing for level, and it makes setting the cabinets a breeze after its down. Plus I like the continuous look of a one piece kick.
On the top of base cabinets, I use two 4" stretchers run horizontally from side to side which make attaching tops a breeze.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Bob, welcome to the creek! I am not very experienced with this, but I do have some comments:

2) If so what screws should I use?

You mention that you have a Kreg jig. The square drive screws have already been mentioned (I like the Highpoint screws, probably more expensive, but I am just guessing) If you look at the screws that came with the Kreg Jig, you will notice that some have very small threads for hard woods and some have larger threads for softwoods and plywood.

3) ) I have a Kreg jig, should I use pocket screws instead? (I have found nothing about using pocket screws and how to put together the sides and bottoms on cabinets, plenty on frames)

I really like how quickly I was able to throw a cabinet together using the Kreg jig. As already stated, however, be certain that the boards are the correct size and the edges are square.

4) If I use pocket screws, where do I put the pocket screws? On the bottom piece of the sides and back?

The advantage of using the sides is that you can lay the bottom on the ground and place the sides on the bottom then screw them in place. Another advantage for a bottom cabinet is that the weight is bearing down onto the bottom which likely makes it stronger. Note that I have no particular reason to believe that this matters, I am just mentioning it because it makes sense in my mind.

The disadvantage is that you can then see the screws in the side of your cabinet and the bottom is visible on the sides. Because of this, I placed my screws on the bottom of the cabinet so that they would not be visible.

My floor was not even close to flat so that at one point, there is a difference in height of almost one inch. Because of this, I used adjustable legs (LOVE THEM). The legs that I used allow me to adjust the height with the cabinet in place. To do this, I have a hole drilled in the bottom of the base, which is not a problem because I have drawers in the bottom. If you use the legs on a base, it won't matter. Also, you can adjust them without the hole, just not as easy.

I mention the legs now (rather than when you ask about legs) because you need to make sure that your screws in the bottom do not interfere with the placement of the bottom legs.

So, I used pocket holes on the bottom (the part that faces the floor) and I also used pocket holes for the back pieces (like you, I used full size ply for the back). For my book shelf, I have 1/4" ply on the back and that is simply nailed in place.

The top has stretchers, with screws on the top part, which is then covered by the real top. Unsure how you will do that.... but it worked for me with my face frames.

7) What type of finish should I apply to the inside of the plywood?

I used the same that I applied to the outside.

[frank shic]

try to use prefinished plywood or melamine if you haven't already bought the sheets - it'll save you a ton of time finishing the cabinet parts (i learned this the HARD ay on my first kitchen). also i recommend fastcaps prefinished PVC tape over the iron-on melamine as it's a lot more durable. get used to the idea that you will be doing a lot of trimming and filing. it's worth buying the edge trimmer as well as the end trimmer tool.

you could use pocket hole screws for the joinery but i've never had any luck getting right angle butt joints to clamp perfectly flush without using a lot of clamps. screwing the sides into the bottom from the side supposedly allows the cabinet to transmit the weight to the adjustable feet if you space them correctly so that the lip overlaps the joint.

i prefer to use a pneumatic nailer or stapler to initially tack the parts together and then drive confirmat screws after everything is aligned. i align the bottom with a side and tack them together. once that's done the rest of the construction goes pretty quickly: align the next side to the bottom and tack that together, put the nailer strips (the two thinner strips that you use at the top of the base cabinet) in and tack those together and then slide the back in or in your case tack it on with the cabinet facing downwards. yes, you can definitely just screw into your 3/4" backs as long as you use a long enough screw - mcfeely's sell them (cabinet hanging screws).

consider where you're putting the 32mm holes as you can easily install all the hardware with them if you pay some attention. generally a 37mm setback will allow you to use the holes for hinge installation and if you set the rear column of holes at the proper distance you can use them for the drawer slides.

i always use the adjustable legs but it may be more efficient just to use two of them on the front and just fasten a board to the wall for quick alignment of the rear. i prefer to use the ones that just knock in but you will need another bit to bore the mounting hole. it's possible to have a continuous looking toe kick if you can find sheet stock that's as long as the run of cabinets. just mount them to the adjustable toe legs with the clips that are included.

the danny proulx book is a great resource and is one of the few that actually provides cutlists.

[Paul Wunder]

+1 on what Troy said. I would consider using a separate base for an entire length of several cabinets and then you only have to level ONCE. I used Confirmat screws and glue (overkill?) for the one kitchen that I built about 24 years ago. PHENOMINAL holding power, but a caution: they were designed for particle board (which is what I used back then for my frameless cabinets and then applied a veneer. You may want to get some more advice as to holding power in plywood end grain. Hopefully others will chime in. A 3/4 back rabbeted into the sides is plenty strong to hang directly to the wall studs. Be sure to recess the backs so as to leave room for shimming.

Welcome to the Creek. Lots of nice folks here.

[frank shic]

confirmats hold fine in ply

[Sean Rainaldi]

I was you three years ago, had no wood working tools or experience, then bought them and built my own kitchen 8 base and 8 wall cabinets - all from scratch -rough sawn lumber in my garage.

I would strongly reccomend you purchase the Mark Sommerfeld dvd series on building kitchen cabinets. In those videos you will see everything you need to know to build an entire kitchen cabinet set. Most answers to your questions are in those vids.

One thing you might consider, I also like the look of frameless cabinets but built cabinets with face frames, and instead of having the face frame over hang the insie of the cabinet walls, I made the face frames flush with the plywood, thus you can use either face frame type door hinges or frameless door hinges. All my face frames were only 1.5" wide out of hard maple.

Hope that helps.

By the way I used some prefinished plywood on my cabinets then switched to unfinished for the last batch. Main reason, I did not like the finish but more importantly when you saw the plywood that finish dust created bysawing you will be breathing in and who knows what is in there.

I used pocket hole joinery - Kreg with great sucess, the first three face frames ended up screwed up and I used as fire wood haha, but once I got the hang of it, each and every face frame came out perfect every time.

I used adjustable feet for the base cabinets bought them at rockler - worked great but they are expensive 18 bucks for a set for one cabinet and that adds up quick.

One thing - get used to the idea of not having a kitchen for months if you have never done this before, my gal was without a fully completed kitchen for two years by the time all cabinets and doors and plumbing and electrical and flooring and drywall and paint and tile and counter was in place (did everything myself except counter). But I sure had fun doing it.

[John TenEyck]

I use bisquits for all the joints in kitchen cabinet boxes, whether plywood or melamine (which I prefer because there's no finishing required), 3 in each side of the uppers, and 4 or 5 in the base units. After I glue and clamp I drive two or three coarse drywall screws in each joint and then move on. You could use 3/4" backs, but it just adds unneccesary weight. I use 1/4" backs set into a rabbet and mount a 4" wide cleat at the top on the inside, bisquited into the sides, that I use to attach the cabinets to the wall. I also like building a separate toe kick, out of plywood, not 2 x 4's which can shrink later and give you all kinds of headaches (How do I know that?). Once and done. It may also make running your utilities easier. Like another poster said, I use a 3 or 4 inch wide board at the front and back at the top of the cabinet, again bisquited to the sides, for attaching the countertops.

As others have said, the most important thing about building kitchen cabinets is to have square parts and all duplicate parts identical. If you don't, the boxes won't go together square and your problems multiple at every step. So make sure your equipment is making square panels and try to cut all identical parts in one set up, or at least in batches.

Good luck. And, oh yeah, I'm envious of the equipment you're starting out with.

[Sean Rainaldi]

As others have said, the most important thing about building kitchen cabinets is to have square parts and all duplicate parts identical. If you don't, the boxes won't go together square and your problems multiple at every step. So make sure your equipment is making square panels and try to cut all identical parts in one set up, or at least in batches.

Good luck. And, oh yeah, I'm envious of the equipment you're starting out with.

I second that, repeatabiity with your jointer, planer and a well tuned table saw are key. Square parts are key.

[frank shic]

the delta sliding table attachment was invaluable the last time i built kitchen cabinets but the next time it will go even more smoothly since i have an exaktor sliding table installed now. tracksaws are a possible alternative if you don't have the room but you'll waste a fair amount of time adjusting for all the different sizes.

[Jeff Mackay]

Another vote for making sure everything is square. One question: what kind of countertop will you put on the lower cabinets? If granite (or something heavy), I'd rest the sides on the bottom (on a 24" cabinet, the bottom would be 24" wide), I'd also use a ladder base, and level it prior to attaching the cabinets to the base. The top of the lower cabinets can be left open, except for maybe a 3 inch wide strip at the front (and back if you decide to use thinner plywood for the back. I normally use biscuits and screws when assembling the carcass. The biscuits keep things aligned, and the screws help to hold things together while the glue sets. I'm partial to face frame cabinets over frameless, but to each his own. I like the book "Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets" by Jim Tolpin--and used his methods to build more than 30 separate cabinets for a previous home.

[Bob Judge]

Thanks for all the responses. We are going to have stone countertops of some kind.

Would it be ok to do pocket screws and confirmat screws?

Using 3/4 inch plywood Bottom 22 1/2 w x 23 1/4 d Sides 24 w x 30 1/2 h and back 22 1/2 w x 30 1/2 high with 2 4" stretechers on the top with pocket screws. Today I bought adjustable legs at Rockler and 2 right angle clamps. I am thinking I will pocket screw the back to the sides from behind, then pocket screw the bottom to the sides and all the holes will be out of sight. Would it be overkill to add a few square drive wood screws or confirmats to the sides?

Thanks again

[frank shic]

yes, you can do it that way, although i'd be impressed if everything flushes up perfectly using pocket screws and it's really not necessary to hide the screw holes unless it's going to be an exposed end without a raised panel to cover it. one build order would be: pocket screw the bottom to the back, rest the bottom/back assembly on top of a side, pocket screw it together and then flip the whole thing over on to the other side and pocket screw that together, flip the whole thing upside down so you can use the assembly table to flush up the stretchers and then pocket screw them in. the pocket screws will be strong enough and if you place the levelling legs so that the lip overlaps the joint line, your base cabinets will be strong enough to handle a heavy countertop.