GLOAT, GLOAT, GLOAT!!! A Sharpening discovery for me.

[Archie England]

So any one used/tested these Sigma stones and Shaptons both, just curious as to how they compare to each other. I have a few Shaptons as the primary sharpening stones but have never used (actually even heard of till this thread) the Sigma stones.

Zahid, check with Orlando. In an earlier thread he listed the various stones, including Shapton Pro, that he had worked with. The Sigma Power Ceramics became his primary water stones. These Sigmas are not the same Select II that LV sells. They are better all-around users as opposed to the Select IIs which excel at metal removal and speed but are less dish resistant. The way I'd put to other woodworkers: the Sigma powers won't work as quickly once composite metals are engaged but will outlast the Select IIs in longevity at every step along the way. Those who own both should speak up and address this better than I have.

[george wilson]

Phil,the white and black Spydercos are only $48.00+change. I wouldn't waste my money on the ultra fine. The white one is perfectly fine enough since it such a hard stone. If you don't mind flattening it a bit with a diamond bench stone,save the extra money. From the pictures recently posted of the wavy tops of the "ground" stones,you've got to flatten them anyway.

[Wilbur Pan]

So any one used/tested these Sigma stones and Shaptons both, just curious as to how they compare to each other. I have a few Shaptons as the primary sharpening stones but have never used (actually even heard of till this thread) the Sigma stones.

I have a Sigma Power Ceramic 1000 and a Shapton Pro 1000. For me, it's really hard to pick which one I like better. Both cut very quickly and stay flat. In my hands, the Shapton seems to cut slightly faster, and works well without soaking. Stu has said that Shaptons benefit from soaking, which I believe, but I haven't found this to be a necessity.

The Shapton is a lot thinner than the Sigma. The Sigma gives you much more waterstone for your money. It's going to take me a long time to wear out the Shapton, however.

The Sigma requires soaking, which is a little bit of an inconvenience. It only takes about 5 minutes of soaking in water to get it up and running, though, and what I do is put it into water when I get into the shop, and by the time I need to do any sharpening, it's ready to go.

Basically, it's kind of like the choice between a Lie-Nielsen and a Lee Valley plane. You're going to do well with either one. If I only had either the Shapton Pro 1000 or the Sigma Power Ceramic 1000, I wouldn't see a need to switch to the other one. Either one is going to be a marked improvement over Nortons, and faster than oilstones, as Archie noted.

[Harvey Pascoe]

Am I the only one who wonders what you all do that you can afford to pay out that kind of money for stones?

[David Weaver]

Well, not many of us are working wood for a living, as quickly getting tools sharp enough to work wood (when working wood is what really counts) really isn't a problem even with oil stones.

The whole sharpening stone thing is a bit of a contrived problem, a made market. It's for the hobbyists to kick around, as I gather the pros pick one set of stones and just use them and don't care outside of that.

There's nobody on here who can sharpen who couldn't get a good edge quickly with a cheap dry grinder, a hard arkansas stone and a piece of MDF with cheap abrasive compound (the abrasive in the compounds is the same as what's in the stones, some are better - chromium oxide will make anything in any kind of iron very sharp - $7 worth of it will last years).

But we do, in the hand tool community, like to chase little details around that are not functionally related to practical completion of woodworking tasks (count me in that as guilty, also). It must be fun for us, or we wouldn't do it! (and I wouldn't have so many stones, somewhere it was more about entertaining myself and curiosity than getting tools sharp - but I can admit that).

[Stuart Tierney]

Am I the only one who wonders what you all do that you can afford to pay out that kind of money for stones?

I dunno about the rest of the folks here, but I sell sharpening stones...

And some other tools too.

Stu.

(And yes, I can write off the cost as a tax deduction. Nice work, if you can get it. )

[Chris Griggs]

Am I the only one who wonders what you all do that you can afford to pay out that kind of money for stones?

Actually Harvey, I think that's a good question, one I've often wondered myself, so here is my answer.

I'm a college adviser - 29 yrs old and early in my career. My fiancee and I are saving for a house, a cross country move and paying out the wazoo in student loans every month. We both make a pretty good living, but are not wealthy by any means.

That said, I have no kids and don't own a home, don't have a car payment or ongoing credit card payments, and even though I have a car, I bike to work most days so I'm not getting killed by gas prices like everyone else.

I literally, just yesterday put in an order for some sigmas. Did I need them? No, but then again I don't need to woodwork at all. I'll be the first to admit that the amount of money I've put into this hobby is ridiculous. Seriously, it's absurd...

Now I don't have the means or desire to buy as many stones as Orlando and David (not that I think there's anything wrong with it), but for me it's worth it to put money into a high quality set of stones that I enjoy (yes I said enjoy) using. The easier, better, and more fun they are to use the more likely I am to keep my tools sharp, which helps make my woodworking, better, faster, and more enjoyable. I'd say, I put a big investment into something like stones,or a really fancy plane 2-3 times a year. Coincidentally, these purchases often correlate with my birthday and tax return season.

Also, if I end up having kids in a few years, I know I'll have almost no money to put into woodworking, so it makes sense for me to invest in things now that I will be able to use for the rest of my life.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

[Chris Griggs]

Well, not many of us are working wood for a living, as quickly getting tools sharp enough to work wood (when working wood is what really counts) really isn't a problem even with oil stones.

The whole sharpening stone thing is a bit of a contrived problem, a made market. It's for the hobbyists to kick around, as I gather the pros pick one set of stones and just use them and don't care outside of that.

There's nobody on here who can sharpen who couldn't get a good edge quickly with a cheap dry grinder, a hard arkansas stone and a piece of MDF with cheap abrasive compound (the abrasive in the compounds is the same as what's in the stones, some are better - chromium oxide will make anything in any kind of iron very sharp - $7 worth of it will last years).

But we do, in the hand tool community, like to chase little details around that are not functionally related to practical completion of woodworking tasks (count me in that as guilty, also). It must be fun for us, or we wouldn't do it! (and I wouldn't have so many stones, somewhere it was more about entertaining myself and curiosity than getting tools sharp - but I can admit that).

Very well said David - I most certainly agree...

[Mike Henderson]

Well, not many of us are working wood for a living, as quickly getting tools sharp enough to work wood (when working wood is what really counts) really isn't a problem even with oil stones.

The whole sharpening stone thing is a bit of a contrived problem, a made market. It's for the hobbyists to kick around, as I gather the pros pick one set of stones and just use them and don't care outside of that.

There's nobody on here who can sharpen who couldn't get a good edge quickly with a cheap dry grinder, a hard arkansas stone and a piece of MDF with cheap abrasive compound (the abrasive in the compounds is the same as what's in the stones, some are better - chromium oxide will make anything in any kind of iron very sharp - $7 worth of it will last years).

But we do, in the hand tool community, like to chase little details around that are not functionally related to practical completion of woodworking tasks (count me in that as guilty, also). It must be fun for us, or we wouldn't do it! (and I wouldn't have so many stones, somewhere it was more about entertaining myself and curiosity than getting tools sharp - but I can admit that).

I agree, also. When I first started in woodworking, I tried a bunch of different techniques for sharpening. Now, what I want is fast. I have a WorkSharp 3000 that I use for establishing a bevel or flattening the back of a chisel, then Shaptons to do the secondary bevel and to polish the back. DMT diamond plate to flatten the Shaptons.

It used to take me forever to sharpen a set of chisels. Now, I can do a set in maybe 30 minutes, or less. [I teach hand cut dovetails and the students use my chisels so I have to do a lot of sharpening - aside from my own work.]

Mike

[I tried ceramic stones but prefer the Shaptons.]

[george wilson]

I think in the final analysis,it boils down to whatever stones you feel the most comfortable with. Logic isn't usually what makes a lot of people make decisions.

[Tony Shea]

Logic isn't usually what makes a lot of people make decisions.

Lol, i very much like this quote George. It certainly applies to many aspects of my tool buying endevours. Sharpening stones of late has been that lack of logic spot, although I'm beginning to calm down and stick with a certain few stones. Handsaws are another place where I don't use much logic in my decision to buy. Luckily most of my decision making that lacks logic is mostly to do with my wallet. Others seem to lack this logic in much more important decisions that effect their life and others permanently.

[David Keller NC]

Am I the only one who wonders what you all do that you can afford to pay out that kind of money for stones?

That depends on what you mean. 1000X stones are generally pretty cheap. 8000X and up are less so.

However, this is actually the cheapest way to sharpen (stones, I mean - whether Oil, Water or Ceramic). Wet/Dry sandpaper sounds cheap, particularly when you consider that you can get a pack of 10 sheets of silicon carbide wet-dry paper for about $6, and a piece of float glass for $15 or less. So considering that you'll need perhaps 3 different grits (4 would be better), you're at $35. You'll need a leather strop and some honing compound with this set-up, so add about $15 for that. So all in all, you've made in investment of $50, or about what a Norton 1000X water stone costs.

The problem is that you might have to replace the Norton 1000X a couple of times in a 20 year hand-tool WW career (and that's doing a lot of woodworking). The 4000X stone will likely be used up once in 20 years. And the 8000X stone will last your working lifetime, plus the lifetime of at least another woodworker.

You'll be replacing the sandpaper about once every 2 months, possibly once every month.

That's harshly expensive compared to shelling out the approximately $300 for a Norton 1000X, a Norton 4000X, a Norton 8000X, and a DMT extra coarse Dia-Sharp to flatten the stones. If you use a granite surface plate and silicon carbide paper to flatten the waterstones as I do, and noting that I'm on the same piece of 220 grit silicon carbide paper that I was using last winter (Wet-Dry lasts a lot longer when just used to flatten water stones), you can reduce the total investment down to about $200.

Add to that calculation that sandpaper has the undesirable property of dubbing the edges of chisels and plane blades when used to remove a burr or polish the backs of blades, and that to compensate you'll have to grind/hone the blade edge back. That means significantly more wear on your plane blades and chisels, which aren't cheap.

[Dave Cav]

The whole sharpening stone thing is a bit of a contrived problem, a made market. It's for the hobbyists to kick around, as I gather the pros pick one set of stones and just use them and don't care outside of that.

Heck, it's even worse than that where I work (I teach high school shop). The chisels go from the grinder to a felt wheel with green compound, and then on the rack. Lathe chisels and gouges are straight from the grinder.

[Aaron Rappaport]

Has anyone here tried the Sigma 120 work for flattening the backs of really beat up blades?

[Chris Griggs]

Has anyone here tried the Sigma 120 work for flattening the backs of really beat up blades?

Archie, who started this thread, got one for that purpose. I had a chance to use it, but hopefully he'll chime in since I only got to use it briefly.

It's a chainsaw, it cuts like crazy and is very hard. It is very thirsty and you need to continually pour water over it to prevent it from glazing - my understanding is that that is just sorta the nature of the beast with stones that course, but I can't really compare it to anything since I've never used any other stone in that grit range.

Anyway, it will grind down a back in a hurry, but it will also leave pretty deep scratches so you'll want something in the 400-600 range to take those out. I believe Archie has a Chosera 400 on the way for that purpose.

It's an impressive stone, unlike anything else I've ever used (although I haven't used all that many)....