Would love to discuss the using of hide glue...

[bob blakeborough]

Hi Everyone,

So being the relative newbie I am, every day I am in the shop brings on a new learning experience, and the more I am learning, the more I want to learn, and last weekend I was over at a friends (who is a bit of my mentor who is helping me learn more about hand tool woodworking), another fellow was there who is a violin maker and a brief discussion of hide glue came up. My woodworking friend doesn't use it himself, but the Luthier does. I didn't have enough time as I had to head out, but the subject stayed in my brain...

Now from my research online, it sounds like the major benefits of using hide glue are strength, durability and reversibility, while the downsides are short open time and the obvious requirements of needing things such as a glue pot etc to mix it in as well as the effort to make it vs just squeezing Titebond from a bottle.

In regards to strength, how much stronger is it than using something like Titebond III? Is the difference going to give you any real world benefit in the production of normal household furniture (things such as drawers, chests, tables etc)? From my understanding, if you are building furniture that you want to last generations, it is probably the best way to go, but is the normal glues that much worse? I can see being reversible as a good thing for things like drawer repair etc...

For the downsides, how long does one have to work with it once applied? Online I find lots of comments about how if the glue gels before the piece is bonded, you will need to start again, but I can't seem to find out what sort of real time that is? Obviously there will be some variations depending on temperature etc, but can it be reasonably quantified? As for the production of hide glue, is there a learning curve? Is it really that much of a pain or is it pretty simple and not overly time consuming? Some people seem to produce a bit of it and freeze the leftovers in ice cube trays to just reheat the next time they need it...

Anyways, I would love to hear some real world experience from people who use it in furniture building. The idea of it is appealing to me in the sense of doing things in the "old timey" way, but is the reality all it is cracked up to be? If anyone is willing to put their thoughts down, it would be greatly appreciated!

Bob

[David Weaver]

Liquid hide isn't old timey, but it is a bit more expensive and apparently not very water resistant (like some of the glues like TBIII are, at least more than liquid hide).

I have been using liquid hide for a while because it has a long open time, and because I don't feel the need to be quite so anal retentive about wiping off every atom of glue that might show up later when you finish something, nor being quite so anal retentive about clamping the crap out of wood like folks who use the TBs and read magazine articles like to do.

Most of the things you build with TBIII will probably never fail, and if they do, you'll just have to do a little more work to repair.

Liquid hide is about twice as expensive as the higher end new glues, but I haven't ever found glue to be a major expense in any project - senseless to worry about $3 more of glue cost in a project that uses $400 worth of wood and $75 worth of finishing supplies.

[john brenton]

I have a 1/2 lb of hide glue granules that have been sitting in my shop for a couple of years now. I just never got around to making a glue pot. I know it's not hard, I just haven't done it.

I have worked with hot hide glue though and do think it's the way to go for joinery. The consistency is good, and the main benefit for me is what David said about clean up. The TB is great for big stuff like gluing up legs for turning, laminated tops, shop appliances, etc.

As far as making hide glue goes, I thought about it, but I don't know where to get a fresh hide...and don't think I even want to do that. It would be a good "survival" skill I suppose. You can find good hide glue granules for a decent price, and you're not going to be gluing up a 10 piece laminated benchtop with it or anything.

[Andrae Covington]

This might be one of those contentious topics...

From all the studies and tests I have seen, as long as the joints are prepared properly any glue that one might reasonably use for woodworking is going to be stronger than the wood itself. So the fact that one type of glue might be stronger than another is irrelevant in my opinion.

Durability is an open question. Animal-based protein colloid glues have been used at least since Egyptian times, and many antique or even ancient objects have survived intact to this day. On other objects, the glue has failed. Was it poor joinery? Extreme weather conditions? A particularly weak batch of glue? The modern, primarily petroleum-based plastic glues have been around for about 100 years, or less. Countless pieces of furniture built in the ensuing decades have held together so far. A few have failed. Will plastic glues survive for hundreds or even thousands of years like collagen glues? We don't know yet.

The reversibility / repairability of hide glue is often cited as an advantage. I think this is particularly helpful for instrument makers, but for furniture, the likelihood of needing to reglue in your lifetime is slim, unless the piece is exposed to extreme heat and humidity or otherwise damaged. The ability to apply heat and moisture to gently disassemble the joinery is a bonus to your descendants or other future owners... assuming that someone in that time is sharp enough to realize the piece was assembled with such a glue.

So far my only forays into hide glue have been to use the commercially-produced liquid forms. I have used both Old Brown Glue and Titebond. Functionally they seem about the same to me. I slightly prefer Old Brown Glue because it is simpler, just hide glue and urea, but the Titebond is available at a local woodworking supply vs. ordering Old Brown Glue online.

I agree with David Weaver that the longer open time and not having to obsess so much about a little glue left behind affecting finishes are two advantages of liquid hide glue (the latter also true of hot hide glue). That said, my shop is pretty cool in the winter, ~50°, and applying warm hide glue to cool pieces of wood causes it to solidify in a hurry. When the shop is warmer though, even 60°, there is plenty of time to get the joints together, get the clamps on, and make adjustments.

Like John Brenton, I've had hide glue granules sitting around the shop for a couple years now, but I have yet to experiment with hot hide glue. Still on my long list of things to try.

[Matt Wilson]

I tried hide glue on my last project, I quite liked it, but I'm not exclusively using either. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but every study/test I've read indicates that hide glue isn't as strong as most pva glues, but its more then strong enough. The main reason I gave it a try is due to the fact that it doesn't impact your finish. Unlike pva glues, improperly cleaned up sqeeze-out won't impact the way finishes are absorbed by the wood. This is a big plus in my books. Hide glue also cleans up easily and is quite reversible.
The two major negatives are:
-the short open time. you really need to plan out your glue up in advance
-prep time. it doesn't take long to cook up a batch, but if you are like me, sometimes you are just trying to get something done in a short period of time.

[Matt Lau]

Hot hide glue is great!

It's essentially gelatin, and it cleans up nicely. It also allows for rubbed joints, has a very nice acoustic translucency and is ridiculously reversable.
It doesn't creep. It's invisible if used right. It's eco friendly. But it generally has a short working time. For lutherie, it's the best thing to use (unless you're playing with carbon fiber, nomex, or other non wood things).

George Wilson should have a much better explanation of things.

[Tony Shea]

I personally see no advantage in using the granule form and having to melt your own glue down each time. Especially in a weekend woodworker shop such as mine where throwing the glue pot on every time I enter the shop would be a waste of energy. This type of hide glue also is much more finiky as far as open time goes.

I absolutely have fallen i love with pre-bottled formulations of luquid hide glue such as Patrick Edward's Old Brown glue. Titebond's Luquid Hide glue is also very nice to work with. If someone wants to use hide glue (which I highly reccomend) then buying it already bottled in luquid form is unquestionably the way to go in this day in age. You still get the transparency through finishes, which is it's biggest assest, and end up with over double the open time. This stuff is just as reversable as granule form hide glue as well. Like I said, there really is no good reason to through melting down your own hide glue when Luquid hide glue exists. I use nothing but Old Brown, unless I need the water-resistance of TBIII, and have never been let down.

[Dave Anderson NH]

As has been noted hide glue is reversible and as strong as the PVA glues. I build traditional Queene Anne furniture and feel that it is in keeping with tradition. More importantly, hide glue takes dyes and stains and if you overlook a bit of squeeze out or tiny splotch somewhere it won't stick out like a sore thumb and completely ruin the finish and require you to start over. It also allows you to avoid the hassles of clamping for much of your joinery. Rub joints are easily accomplished. I personally have Old Brown Glue (a liquid hide glue) and my heatable kind in the shop all of the time. For ultimate strength and clampless joinery I use hot hide glue and for down and dirty projects or when I need a longer open time I use the OBG. I do not own a glue pot as such. A $6 mini-crockpot with some water in it and a glass jar with the glue in it suffices for me. I do use a candy thermometer to keep the temperature around 140F which is my prefered working temp. Even with hot hide glue you can effectively increase the open time by either keeping warm or preheating the parts to be joined using a hair dryer. I also like to keep the parts to be joined near the wood stove in the bench room during months when the stove is going. This seems to work out quite well.

[Jake Rothermel]

I don't necessarily want to hijack this thread [but I am]; I do think this might touch on a lot of what you've already posed, Bob. What's the shelf life of something like Old Brown Glue?

I have read recently that yellow glue and other 'traditional' wood glues [ie, the stuff that came AFTER hide glue] have a certain shelf life before it begins to break down in the bottle and becomes less strong. Essentially, that it goes bad, regardless of how it's stored or how much is left in the bottle. Is this true? This was the first time I'd heard of this being a problem with yellow wood glue and I wondered if it carried over to other glues [like hide].

I've thought about trying hide glue many times, partly because of what a lot of you have been saying about it. Something like Old Brown Glue appeals to me; mostly because a glue pot and heating/mixing my own is impractical for me in my current living/shop configuration. Like a lot of us, I don't get a lot of shop time [certainly not as much as I want!]; so it bothers me to think that the otherwise trusty bottle of elmer's I've had up there for a few years might now be "useless."

jake

[daniel lane]

I do not use hide glue (yet), but I noticed from the OBG web site that it has a 6mo RT shelf life, 12mo if kept in a refrigerator.


daniel

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'd like to avoid steering the conversation in a controversial or political direction; so let's avoid discussing the why or why not about something that's a personal choice and simply throw out an answer if you've got one, but while we're discussing hide glue, I am curious if there is a product that performs like hot hide glue but isn't made from animals. I remember reading a thing online a long while ago about a fellow who for religious reasons was manufacturing an animal-free product that was similar, (as well as attempting to make a bug free shellac) but haven't heard anything about it since.

[lowell holmes]

You mix the glue in water to start the process, and place the water glue mixture in an aluminum can that's had the top cut off. Then the can is placed in an old shallow pot of boiling water until the glue melts and it's ready to go. No glue pots are required.

The glue is reversible and if you put new hot glue in an old joint, it is renewable. There are some jobs that pva glue just isn't appropriate.

If I used the hide glue daily, I would have a glue pot.

[Andrae Covington]

I don't necessarily want to hijack this thread [but I am]; I do think this might touch on a lot of what you've already posed, Bob. What's the shelf life of something like Old Brown Glue?

I have read recently that yellow glue and other 'traditional' wood glues [ie, the stuff that came AFTER hide glue] have a certain shelf life before it begins to break down in the bottle and becomes less strong. Essentially, that it goes bad, regardless of how it's stored or how much is left in the bottle. Is this true? This was the first time I'd heard of this being a problem with yellow wood glue and I wondered if it carried over to other glues [like hide].

I've thought about trying hide glue many times, partly because of what a lot of you have been saying about it. Something like Old Brown Glue appeals to me; mostly because a glue pot and heating/mixing my own is impractical for me in my current living/shop configuration. Like a lot of us, I don't get a lot of shop time [certainly not as much as I want!]; so it bothers me to think that the otherwise trusty bottle of elmer's I've had up there for a few years might now be "useless."

jake

I do not use hide glue (yet), but I noticed from the OBG web site that it has a 6mo RT shelf life, 12mo if kept in a refrigerator.

daniel

As far as I know, all the liquid glues have a limited shelf life. Generally PVA glues are said to last for about a year. However, just like most expiration dates, the companies are very conservative. A bottle could last a couple years or more, and I believe white glue lasts longer than yellow. If it's thick and stringy or turned into an odd-colored goop, then obviously it's time to throw it out. I don't think the strength is significantly decreased with PVA glues until there are visible signs that the glue is old.

[Bob Smalser]

I'd like to avoid steering the conversation in a controversial or political direction; so let's avoid discussing the why or why not about something that's a personal choice and simply throw out an answer if you've got one, but while we're discussing hide glue, I am curious if there is a product that performs like hot hide glue but isn't made from animals. I remember reading a thing online a long while ago about a fellow who for religious reasons was manufacturing an animal-free product that was similar, (as well as attempting to make a bug free shellac) but haven't heard anything about it since.

Try urea formaldehyde. "Plastic Resin Glue". It's made from recycling barnyard manure. No hooves, hide and and cartiledge rendered like hot hide glue. No oil consumed like in PVA, epoxy or poly.

http://www.cpadhesives.com/woodworki...-gallon-bottle

Except for round-tenon joints and chairs, I prefer it over hide glue. Longer open time and more versatile. Authentic for reproductions back to around 1900.

[Bill Haumann]

I use hide glue because it's more fun for me.I also like it's reversibility (though I haven't had to do so yet), and it's friendliness to finishes.