Table problems . . . your thoughts and opinions for hand planing?

[Glen Butler]

I decided to start a new thread for this one. I am now deciding to learn the art of hand planing, scraping, etc. because I am not happy with the results of the wide belt sander.

The table was originally to be one piece 42 x 60 as seen in this pic. The base has not been built yet.
Main Table.jpg

Then I decided I wanted a little more function so I added leaves. I regret doing that somewhat, because the leaf parts were cut after the main table parts and getting all the sizes perfectly even and matched was quite difficult considering the glue up has so many pieces. Nevertheless, whats done is done, and now I have to make it work.
With Leaves.jpg

I have pictures shown of the most troubling table flatness issues. It has been sanded on a local planing mills' wide belt. I wanted and needed the edge glued up prior to sanding to establish the plane of the table so it was sanded using runners and was hollow underneath spots. The hump was not there before sanding which tells me the sander deflected the top rather than sanding it. This pic shows the hump in the right half of the table. The gap shown is about 33% more than the height of the actual hump.

Table Hump.jpg

A total of 3/32 was taken off the top. You can see where the veneer is thinnest is still nearly 1/16 thick and I shouldn't even have to scrape that area much. If the sander did indeed deflect the table I shouldn't have to worry about scraping through the veneer in the middle.

Veneer Thickness.jpg

I always use their wide belt for my cabinet doors and stairway projects, but I will probably avoid it for my future finer pieces. I am really not happy about this gouge.

Sander gouge.jpg

The bottom of the table here is only slightly misaligned but the top as you can see looks terrible. Another issue that could have been avoided if I had hand planed. I am considering buying a joint plane to work in the joints between leaf and table halves.

Thickness issues.jpg

A scraper or block plane will probably work well for cleaning up the table edge.

Table edge.jpg

[Chris Fournier]

I'd agree with the direction that you are heading in Glen. If I use a wide belt sander for large panels I allow for snipe at the ends and the surface is anything but flat. Careful work on a stroke sander would leave you with better results that you have here. I find that drum and stroke sanders require very careful attention to depth of cut and feed rate. Hand tools will get you where you want to go!

[Bill Moser]

Glen - two thoughts: First, it seems like from a design perspective, you fairly wide molding, while pretty, isn't the right choice for a dining table. Have you run this by your wife? I can just see bowls and plates sliding into people's laps . One thing you might want to do is to cut off the molding, and apply plain rectangular-cross-section strips. With the molding out of the way, you have a much better shot at flatting the top. If I understand you correctly, the molding is thicker than the rest of the table, so hand planes will deflect the top just like the sander did. The second thing to consider is that, if you wish to keep the table the same size as it currently is, you'll need to plane the entire top down to the lowest level of that snipe you showed. You might lose the veneer on the process! getting rid of the molding will also let you rethink the size of the table -- perhaps a little shorter, and you can save it.

[Jim Koepke]

Nice looking table, even with a few flaws.

My thoughts on this is to blend in the areas were items do not match up. Instead of focusing on the whole top, what can be done in the places where there is a mismatch to make them match?

Everyone would like their work to be perfect. Sometimes we have to settle for pleasing.

Little imperfections just show that it was done by hand.

jtk

[john brenton]

I agree with Bill. This whole thing might be better as a wall mounted decoration...maybe make some pop-out frames inside each square section to hold pictures?

[Glen Butler]

Bill, thanks for your thoughts, I debated the table edge and what to do with it for several hours, and finally went for it. I agree its probably not the best thing. If all else fails, chalk it up to a learning experience, and convince the wife to let me make another table.

Jim, agreed, blending is about all I can do, isn't it. Some flaws annoy me more than others. I guess it goes without saying that its a scale of how noticeable they are.

[Bill Moser]

Glen -
You definitely picked a tough project to go Neander with! To really do it right, I'd start on something much smaller, and without veneer/inlay/marquetry etc. A Shaker or Craftsman style end or coffee table is the place to start, and will give you a good feel for how the wood responds to planes, hand saws and chisels. Give something like that a try -- I guarantee it will suck you in. And, of course, provide you the perfect opportunity to acquire more tools

[Christopher Hawkins]

Everyone would like their work to be perfect. Sometimes we have to settle for pleasing.

jtk

Now that's a quote worthy of space on my shop wall. Thanks.

[Andrew Joiner]

To blend it in I would use a belt sander and RO sander to avoid tear-out.

I wouldn't worry about bowls and plates sliding into people's laps. The plate would have to be nearly 1/2 way off the edge to tip, only slightly worse than a square edge table. Test it with an actual plate( simulate a lot of food off center with a weight) if your concerned.

[Paul Murphy]

One thing you might want to do is to cut off the molding...

Glen, I think Bill is on to something here. If I understand the problem correctly you have the most "snipe" near the molding but outboard of the inlay band. I see two options: First option, cut the molding back to just outside the banding, rough flatten the top, glue on new molding, support the underside with shims, and finish leveling the top and molding glue-joint. Second option, rabbet from just outside the banding to just inside the beading (using a bench-rabbet plane, or your tool of choice) to a depth just above the bead. Inlay a new "surround", and plane the top flat as previously discussed.

Bill is right, solve the worst areas of "snipe", and the job becomes much easier and leaves you plenty of thickness on that beautiful veneer & inlay work.

Final thought: After the jointer plane, consider using a scraper plane. Scrapers, cabinet scrapers, and scraper planes have saved my bacon when leveling a surface with many different grain directions. It's a beautiful piece, and an excellent reason to acquire a new tool .

[Glen Butler]

I wouldn't worry about bowls and plates sliding into people's laps. The plate would have to be nearly 1/2 way off the edge to tip, only slightly worse than a square edge table. Test it with an actual plate( simulate a lot of food off center with a weight) if your concerned.

I am not worried about it. We had a great family dinner on a table my brother just built and he has the same profile on his table edge. In addition to the 10 adults, we had two 3 yr. olds at the table, and there was no incident nor was the table edge found to be a problem in the least.

Everything has been grain matched so I will just blend everything together and learn from it.

Paul those were my thoughts exactly, I have been looking into both a scraper and jointer plane.

Another option though. Go rustic! Beat and gouge the table with intent and purpose to give it a well used look. Just a thought, it doesn't really fit the style of table though.

[Jim Matthews]

I hope this isn't an impossibly dense question; is the base where you parked the top for measurement absolutely flat?
This is a charming piece of work, I would not give up your ambition to make them whole... it will be worth the effort.

Is it possible to inlay where the leaves taper? At this point, I would consider adding material rather than blending the flat sections.

jim
wpt, ma

[Glen Butler]

Not a dense question, and one that should definitely be asked considering the problems involved, but yes the base is absolutely flat.

Would you please explain further how you would add material or inlay where the leaves taper?

[David Keller NC]

Glen - You've two potential problems here.

1) You don't say what the grain orientation is underneath the veneered panels in the top. If the construction is solid panels glued into a frame, then wood expansion/contraction is going to mean the top will never be flat because the outside frame will not expand/contract at the same rate. Even if the construction is plywood, there's enough of it that it will still not be flat. I've had this exact problem with plywood panels enclosedon all 4 sides with a substantial long-grain molding. I've made many of these - not a one of them is truly flat after a year or two. Largely, I just ignore it because they're usually chest lid tops or table tops, and flat doesn't matter.


2) You can't plane this construction flat. Take it from a very long time hand-plane user - you're absolutely guaranteed to get major tear-out with the grain direction changes in the top, and that's with a high-angle plane or even a scraper plane. Scraping works well in most cases, but it's no guarantee of no-tear-out performance. It just lessens the tear-out to the point where the surface can be finish-sanded, or filled with a clear finish.


While I certainly get the aggravation in having your work not turn out well from a woodworker's perspective (I've trashed pieces and started over that had lesser issues), I can assure you that the non-woodworkers looking at it will never notice that the top's not absolutely flat, or that the ends of the leaves are sniped by 1/16th of an inch. In fact, if you point these flaws out, they'll tell you you're being "too picky".