New Table Saw Advice

[Ryan Dyer]

Thanks Cary for the measurements. i wasnt aware of the 12.5" past the table in locked position. I am glad you told me about it since that probably is a deal killer for me. The JessEm looks very similar to the grizzly so im thinking it will have similar measurements. The 12.5" would make the whole saw stick out like 4 feet from the wall which is to much. I guess i could leave it in unlocked postion. Or maybe drill a whole and drop a pin in to lock it so the slider is flush with back of saw table.

Is the sliding table worth the money? I reread your thread about the saw and you said you dont need the 52" rip with the slider. How come?

Thanks!

[Cary Falk]

Thanks Cary for the measurements. i wasnt aware of the 12.5" past the table in locked position. I am glad you told me about it since that probably is a deal killer for me. The JessEm looks very similar to the grizzly so im thinking it will have similar measurements. The 12.5" would make the whole saw stick out like 4 feet from the wall which is to much. I guess i could leave it in unlocked postion. Or maybe drill a whole and drop a pin in to lock it so the slider is flush with back of saw table.

Is the sliding table worth the money? I reread your thread about the saw and you said you dont need the 52" rip with the slider. How come?

Thanks!

I really like mine. I rarely ripped plywood on mine I used it for more for crosscutting things square and to the same length. Things like hope chest lids, cabinet sides, etc. Not really the best application but I never have a problem. I can do it a lot safer and easier now with the same amount of precision and I don't have to fiddle to get the first sied square to put against the fence.

EDIT to add: I never could get a homemade sled to cut as square as I wanted.

[Jeff Mackay]

Ryan,

I have the 691 with the sliding table (and still owe the Creek a review of the sliding table). In short, I'd recommend both. The sliding table was relatively easy to set up, and it is solid, square, and smooth. By default, the sliding table replaces the extension to the left of the blade, so you won't see a significant increase in the width of the whole unit (although I did need to cut the rip fence rails). If you'd like, I can go down to the shop and take some measurements for you. The biggest positive is that I can crosscut 4x8 sheets of plywood, laminate, etc. without a lot of trouble. The biggest drawback is that the supplied miter gauge doesn't have the precision or repeatability you'd get out of an aftermarket gauge.

[Jim O'Dell]

Ryan, if I had realized I could get the longer Biese rails for a little over 200 bucks when I bought my saw, I'd have gone with the 690 and swapped fences with my contractor saw. The difference would have paid for half the rails. Oh, and I didn't say earlier but I moved the rails on my 691 to the right about 13" so that I have right at 65" to the right of the blade, and nothing to the left. I will eventually get the longer rails for the Biese fence and swap fence systems, or try to align the rails so that I can use the Biese fence on both saws. The fence on the 690/1 is nice, but it doesn't have the weight of the Biese. I find when I lock the fence down, the back end comes up. I've devised, on paper, a way to keep that from happening, but then the fence would be a pain in the tookus to get off the rails. My Biese doesn't do that. Don't know how the Shop Fox fence does in that regard.
I was fortunate to get to help a fellow Creeker with the basic set up and initial alignment of his 1023RLX and I admit it is a very nice saw. I still think I would choose the 691 for me. The ease of being able to cut the removable door for the dust collection hookup to modify for 6" hook up, and that the door is on the right side of the saw is a big deal to me. The Leeson designed motor, even though it is built in China, comes into play somewhat. The trunnion is the old style tried and true set up, so there was little gamble there, although the 1023R series have had no complaints and Adrian's seemed to be very smooth in operation. It just requires you to decide between a couple feature differences. It was much easier for me than deciding what to get for a Band Saw. Jim.

[Ryan Dyer]

Ryan,

I have the 691 with the sliding table (and still owe the Creek a review of the sliding table). In short, I'd recommend both. The sliding table was relatively easy to set up, and it is solid, square, and smooth. By default, the sliding table replaces the extension to the left of the blade, so you won't see a significant increase in the width of the whole unit (although I did need to cut the rip fence rails). If you'd like, I can go down to the shop and take some measurements for you. The biggest positive is that I can crosscut 4x8 sheets of plywood, laminate, etc. without a lot of trouble. The biggest drawback is that the supplied miter gauge doesn't have the precision or repeatability you'd get out of an aftermarket gauge.

Jeff,

Can you store the saw so the sliding table is flush with the back of the saws table? Im suprised you had to cut the rails, i would have thought since Grizzly seems to list that as an accessory to the 690/691 i would thought it would a simple bolt on installation.

[Ryan Dyer]

Ryan, if I had realized I could get the longer Biese rails for a little over 200 bucks when I bought my saw, I'd have gone with the 690 and swapped fences with my contractor saw. The difference would have paid for half the rails. Oh, and I didn't say earlier but I moved the rails on my 691 to the right about 13" so that I have right at 65" to the right of the blade, and nothing to the left. I will eventually get the longer rails for the Biese fence and swap fence systems, or try to align the rails so that I can use the Biese fence on both saws. The fence on the 690/1 is nice, but it doesn't have the weight of the Biese. I find when I lock the fence down, the back end comes up. I've devised, on paper, a way to keep that from happening, but then the fence would be a pain in the tookus to get off the rails. My Biese doesn't do that. Don't know how the Shop Fox fence does in that regard.
I was fortunate to get to help a fellow Creeker with the basic set up and initial alignment of his 1023RLX and I admit it is a very nice saw. I still think I would choose the 691 for me. The ease of being able to cut the removable door for the dust collection hookup to modify for 6" hook up, and that the door is on the right side of the saw is a big deal to me. The Leeson designed motor, even though it is built in China, comes into play somewhat. The trunnion is the old style tried and true set up, so there was little gamble there, although the 1023R series have had no complaints and Adrian's seemed to be very smooth in operation. It just requires you to decide between a couple feature differences. It was much easier for me than deciding what to get for a Band Saw. Jim.

Jim,

Based on your post, i take it your recommending i get the 1023RL, save the $305, and use it towards an aftermarket fence. Or at least thats what you would do if you had to do it over?

After watching the videos of the incra fence, i might do just that. The very precise measurements and cuts are what i am after. The savings would cover almost half of what it would cost to upgrade to the incra 52" fence system. And being how im incredibly anal when it comes to cuts and precision it would save me a lot stress

[Jim O'Dell]

I've never used the Incra table saw fence, but I will tell you I love my Incra router table system fence!! If you are going to put your router in the TS extension you build, does the Incra TS system double for the router table? Seems like it does. If so, that would be a very nice way to go. Yes, If you think you want the Incra fence, now is the time to do it. Be sure to check around on pricing. IIRC, I got my LS system from Eagle tools for the best price at that time, but looking right quick, I don't see that they carry the TS system. Be sure to check around for best pricing on the model you decide on. Jim.

[Will Blick]

Nice set up Cary!

My only suggestion is, beware of the Incra fence. I have a love/hate relationship with both of mine. I also think the concept is a bit dated. Here is why. You can buy a Wixey digital read-out that you can adapt to any fence, this will give you the accuracy of the Incra, .001". There is a few drawbacks with the Incra. As mentioned, it takes up a huge amount of space at the side. I imagine Incra will change this design in the future and integrate the precision screw in the rails to solve this problem. If you use the shorter LS, you are forced to move the unit up n back on the rails to get to the desired distance. This is where the problems arise, as part of the fence squareness if a function of the set-up. And you only do set up, with the rail-riders at one position. Once you move them, you effect rail squareness as no matter how hard you try, its nearly impossible to get the rails perfectly parallel and perpendicular to the blade....so some of the accuracy leaves the system when you do NOT use the longest LS.

many times, you just want a rough cut, say +/- 1/32" is fine.... this is where the incra is a PITA, specially if you use the smaller LS...too much fussin, gets tiresome. I also prefer the robustness of non-incra fences. I can understand why Marc the "Wood-whisperer" dumped his Incra system in lieu of a more traditional system. the one point he raised is, most of his TS cuts are not to final dimension, so why fuss with such a fence? I agree. So consider the Wixey DRO in addition to whatever fence you like the best, I think its the best of both worlds....

[Ryan Dyer]

Will,

Thanks for your input! I was originally planning on getting the Wixey with the G1023RLX. That was until a few days ago when i discovered the incra. I had never heard of the incra fence. You brought up some good points. If i do get the incra i will be getting the longer 52" version with the wonder fence and most likely router table too. From what your saying i should NOT have accuracy problems with the longer rails correct?

I am little confused why the incra would be a PITA when doing a rough cut... wouldn't you just slide the fence down and lock the lever just like you would with normal fence?

I am sorry if this is a stupid question, but i am just starting this hobby. If most of Marc table saw cuts are not to final dimension, where else would he do it? Everything i have made i cut the wood to dimension either on my portable TS or on my 30 year old RAS.

My biggest beef with the incra that i can tell so far is the flipping gold color (yuck) and the 2 fence lock down knobs. Why wouldn't you use a quick flip down lock or something instead of a screw down.


I really appreciate everyones input. This is going to be a large purchase and i would like to do it right the first time

[Jim O'Dell]

My biggest beef with the Incra that i can tell so far is the flipping gold color (yuck) and the 2 fence lock down knobs. Why wouldn't you use a quick flip down lock or something instead of a screw down.

The green of the Grizzly and the gold of the Incra... 'Sic 'Em Bears!!!!! I love the combination! Of course, I drink Dr. Pepper, the national drink of Baylor! Jim.

[Will Blick]

> My biggest beef with the incra that i can tell so far is the flipping gold color (yuck) and the 2 fence lock down knobs. Why wouldn't you use a quick flip down lock or something instead of a screw down.


This was my point..... I will try to explain more clearly as I might have used wrong terminology..... if you get the long size LS, the Gold rail-riders, (which hold the LS positioner base) with the black wing nutz stay fixed in ONE position, they don't move...you simply move the fence in and out of the positioner base...you can see this on many of the videos. This is how the system is designed to work.... and it works excellent in this set up.... the weakness is, the positioner can stick way out the far end of the saw, if you have a small shop, this is an incredible nuisance. But system is accurate.... maybe just a thou more accurate than Wixey DRO and normal fence...

However, what some have done, like me, is use the short positioner, such as the 17", now you only have 14" cut capacity from blade.... to get further cut capacity, you must loosen the black wing nutz and slide the entire postioner base assembly further down the rail, then use some pre cut 1 ft squares you can place between blade and fence, to know where you are at. this is so, you don't have to re-register scale setting every time.... so this is the constant PITA..... and, you have to remember, the reading is +2ft, more room for error. This is why I have a love / hate relationship with the unit.

If you have no space issues, and can let it hang out, its an accurate fence system, with just a mediocre fence vs. the big name fences which can really take abuse...much depends on if its for fine woodworking more more construction grade stuff, like cutting bigger sheet goods, etc.

The one potential advantage of the LS system is if you have a router at the other end of the table, now it can do double duty..... so its more cost effective, and you get more value out of the system.... this is why I mentioned, it has tremendous pros/cons....

If I were do set up another TS today, I would buy a hardcore fence and Wixey DRO, that is accurate enough for a TS, and you have FAST position fence.... when I bought my Incra set up, the DRO tools were not available for TS's.... Hope this helps.... as you can tell, there is no right/wrong, much depends one what type of work you do, and how much patience you have...

[Ryan Dyer]

> My biggest beef with the incra that i can tell so far is the flipping gold color (yuck) and the 2 fence lock down knobs. Why wouldn't you use a quick flip down lock or something instead of a screw down.


This was my point..... I will try to explain more clearly as I might have used wrong terminology..... if you get the long size LS, the Gold rail-riders, (which hold the LS positioner base) with the black wing nutz stay fixed in ONE position, they don't move...you simply move the fence in and out of the positioner base...you can see this on many of the videos. This is how the system is designed to work.... and it works excellent in this set up.... the weakness is, the positioner can stick way out the far end of the saw, if you have a small shop, this is an incredible nuisance. But system is accurate.... maybe just a thou more accurate than Wixey DRO and normal fence...

I see what you mean.

> However, what some have done, like me, is use the short positioner, such as the 17", now you only have 14" cut capacity from blade.... to get further cut capacity, you must loosen the black wing nutz and slide the entire postioner base assembly further down the rail, then use some pre cut 1 ft squares you can place between blade and fence, to know where you are at. this is so, you don't have to re-register scale setting every time.... so this is the constant PITA..... and, you have to remember, the reading is +2ft, more room for error. This is why I have a love / hate relationship with the unit.

I skimmed the directions last night, but i thought it remember it saying that it included multiple packs of stop hardware. So you could setup different distances. Is there a reason you used wood blocks instead of the hardware stops?

>If you have no space issues, and can let it hang out, its an accurate fence system, with just a mediocre fence vs. the big name fences which can really take abuse...much depends on if its for fine woodworking more more construction grade stuff, like cutting bigger sheet goods, etc.

The one potential advantage of the LS system is if you have a router at the other end of the table, now it can do double duty..... so its more cost effective, and you get more value out of the system.... this is why I mentioned, it has tremendous pros/cons....

If I were do set up another TS today, I would buy a hardcore fence and Wixey DRO, that is accurate enough for a TS, and you have FAST position fence.... when I bought my Incra set up, the DRO tools were not available for TS's.... Hope this helps.... as you can tell, there is no right/wrong, much depends one what type of work you do, and how much patience you have...

I really like the Wixey. I decided on the G1023RL series, which has the shop fox classic. I read reviews on that fence and it seems everyone complains about the plastic window for looking at your measurements. Rather then screwing around with fixing it, i figured i would just use the Wixey. At $100 the price is right and to me its a no brainer. Way more accurate then i could ever be looking at the plastic window anyway.

Right now, my projects are more "construction" grade then fine wood working. Doesnt mean i wont do it in the future, i just dont have any desire to make a cutting board etc...right now. Im currently building garage/shop cabinets, then im going to do closest cabinet/organization system then probably a desk and bookshelfs for my office and probably a enterainment center for my tv.

So as it sits right now, im doing one of two things

1) G1023RLX with Wixey
2) G1023RL with Incra TS-LS-WF 52" and right hand router table.

Option 2 is $451 more, but im also getting a very nice router setup. So its not really apples to apples.


One final thing i want to mention. After reading a LOT of reviews about the Incra fence. It seems the negatives are related to the products operation and the users way of doing things. For me, the 2 step fence lock down is annoying and so is having to add 2 ft to your measurement like Will mentions when ripping sheet goods. But so is ping ponging the fence, trying to move it .001" , and replacing batteries. Not sure what drives me nuts more. This is going to be a very hard choice.

[Will Blick]

Ryan, you are doing your homework, hopefully it will pay off...nothing worse than buyers remorse :-)

as for the Incra stops.... Yes, you can use stops on the rail, as you suggested (maybe you can reference that for me so I am sure we are talking about the same thing)...the problem is, with a very short Positioner I have, 17", I need a series of stops to go out to the edge of the rail.... so the rail stops are a nuisance as I have to constantly have to flip around LS for use on the router table...so I just use blocks....

and sadly enough, I just bought a Wixey, and a second set of Incra rail guides (or rail slides?) and will build a simulated Shop Fox type fence without the positioner, just the wixey DRO...so I will leave that on the bulk of the time, and only use the LS positioner when I am pressed for extreme positioning tasks. Had the DRO's been available long ago, I would have not bought the Incra...

you mention construction grade stuff, or not fine woodworking.... that leads me to think your ShopFox / DRO is ideal, or any other heavy duty fence. Many of them are pretty solid, specially vs. the Incra.

The only caveat, and its a space issue again, is if you put a router table at the end of the TS, and you want to do precision type of work the Incra excels at this, it really does. As it turns out, I do less than I thought, but when I do, its a dream set up. So as you can see, its a set of trade-offs here..... the router table at the end of the TS is rock solid vs standalone unit and its one less machine you must contend with. And, if you go with the Incra, the fence serves double duty, so you may enjoy the value. Again, how much high precision routing will you do? if not a lot, than forget it... Incra router system is great for dovetails, box joints, flutes, raised panels, edge jointing, etc. This was/is the bread n butter of the Incra. But for more simplified routing, such as edge routing or edge jointing, there is much simpler lower cost router fences....

Also, I think its MLSC who makes Cast Iron router tables for TS extensions. If there were available, I would have used them... not sure of weight capacity of Incra rails, you may want to check first. the mass of the metal helps in routing...and you can use magnet feather board type products which is so nice vs. the T track type...

or you can consider what I plan to do.... by an extra set of incra rail guides, and build your own Quickie fence and integrate the Wixey DRO, it relatively low cost way to have a simple to use fence, and the option to drop on the Incra positioner on whenever you like. Remember, the cost of the Incra LS can be shared with the router system to, making it less costly vs. buying a separate router table with incra system on the table.

Its a touch call.... mostly depends on what the bulk of your work will be.... hopefully this added info, will help you better decide.

[Will Blick]

Oh one last add-on.... if you order something from the Incra website, and sing up, they email you a coupon for 10 or 15% off your next order, so if you time that right, and buy a small item to start, then the big order with the coupon, some added savings to stretch your tool dollars...

btw, and I hate to throw a monkey wrench into your decision....but have you ruled out a small slider TS? That is the only other thing I would do next time...I like my PM2000 TS, but after 5 years of use, I really appreciate the value of a small sliding TS...not for sheets, (I relegate all large sheets to the Festool rail system) but for common smaller cuts.... Its so nice to let the saw move the work piece, vs. you forcing the workpiece against the friction of the table. I tried a few sliders and now drool for one...

[Jeff Mackay]

Ryan,

No. The sliding table, when locked, protrudes by about 4" to the back of the saw, and 12" to the front. The table itself is about 4' long, and the saw, with fence rails, is about 32" deep. As far as cutting the rails, I was surprised as well. I suppose i might have been able to shift everything like Jim did, but I didn't want the extra length, so I cut the rails. Also, I requested a kit from Grizzly with a longer power cord to allow me to mount the switch at the front of the table. Did I mention that I really like the sliding table? I just finished cross-cutting a couple of 4x8 sheets of plywood tonight. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to do that very easily with a sled.