New Table Saw Advice

[Ryan Dyer]

Ryan, you are doing your homework, hopefully it will pay off...nothing worse than buyers remorse :-)

as for the Incra stops.... Yes, you can use stops on the rail, as you suggested (maybe you can reference that for me so I am sure we are talking about the same thing)...the problem is, with a very short Positioner I have, 17", I need a series of stops to go out to the edge of the rail.... so the rail stops are a nuisance as I have to constantly have to flip around LS for use on the router table...so I just use blocks....

and sadly enough, I just bought a Wixey, and a second set of Incra rail guides (or rail slides?) and will build a simulated Shop Fox type fence without the positioner, just the wixey DRO...so I will leave that on the bulk of the time, and only use the LS positioner when I am pressed for extreme positioning tasks. Had the DRO's been available long ago, I would have not bought the Incra...

you mention construction grade stuff, or not fine woodworking.... that leads me to think your ShopFox / DRO is ideal, or any other heavy duty fence. Many of them are pretty solid, specially vs. the Incra.

The only caveat, and its a space issue again, is if you put a router table at the end of the TS, and you want to do precision type of work the Incra excels at this, it really does. As it turns out, I do less than I thought, but when I do, its a dream set up. So as you can see, its a set of trade-offs here..... the router table at the end of the TS is rock solid vs standalone unit and its one less machine you must contend with. And, if you go with the Incra, the fence serves double duty, so you may enjoy the value. Again, how much high precision routing will you do? if not a lot, than forget it... Incra router system is great for dovetails, box joints, flutes, raised panels, edge jointing, etc. This was/is the bread n butter of the Incra. But for more simplified routing, such as edge routing or edge jointing, there is much simpler lower cost router fences....

Also, I think its MLSC who makes Cast Iron router tables for TS extensions. If there were available, I would have used them... not sure of weight capacity of Incra rails, you may want to check first. the mass of the metal helps in routing...and you can use magnet feather board type products which is so nice vs. the T track type...

or you can consider what I plan to do.... by an extra set of incra rail guides, and build your own Quickie fence and integrate the Wixey DRO, it relatively low cost way to have a simple to use fence, and the option to drop on the Incra positioner on whenever you like. Remember, the cost of the Incra LS can be shared with the router system to, making it less costly vs. buying a separate router table with incra system on the table.

Its a touch call.... mostly depends on what the bulk of your work will be.... hopefully this added info, will help you better decide.

We are talking about the same stops. It looks like in the manual they go on the bottom of the track. I can definitely see why its a love/hate relationship.

Maybe i'm mis interpreting what your writing, but it sounds like your disappointed with the stiffness or durability of the incra. According to some of the reviews they claim it has the least amount of deflection compared to the T style. Is there something else that gives you that opinion?

My line of thinking is i want something that can do it all. I already have cheap sears benchtop router table that i got for $100. It works ok, but theres not precision to it whatsoever. I dont have a dedicated wood shop, im sharing my rv garage with other toys. So in my case, the saw will be stored against the wall when not in use, and then moved into the middle of the garage when im doing a project. So i should have plenty of room for the incra system. I am lacking floorspace though for storage, so thats why i want to integrate the table saw and the router table. Kill 2 birds with one stone. I want to make it into a mobile workstation. Add a fold up outfeed table on the back and maybe even buy one of those small dust collectors eventually and have built in dust collection, once i get more time/money. This way i can quickly set it up and tear it down for storage. I might work on a project for a month, then not use it again for 6 months.

I really like that cast iron router table. Similar cost to incras wood version too. I could use the MLCS with the incra setup correct?

I also really like the simple operation of the Wixey and the shop fox classic. The ease of zeroing out the wixey seems really nice, and being able to move it all they way over to 52" easily is nice. I also like the smaller footprint. And this is kinda dumb, but i prefer the look and the perceived "heavy duty" ness of the shop fox classic.

At the moment, I am leaning towards the Incra for a couple reasons. First, with my limited experience, even though im doing construction grade stuff, i expect perfection. I expect everything to line up perfectly. Its probably the computer engineer in me. In the computer world everything is exact for the most part. I tell the computer to draw a line 100 pixels wide, its exactly 100 pixels wide. Currently i cut a board 4", well its not 4", its some where in the range of +- 1/32 of 4". Drives me crazy. The wixey would solve part of this, but you still cant move the fence in uniform increments. The incra would solve all of it, BUT i have to get used to the quarks of the incra.

So, while the incra has some annoying things, it wont prohibt me from doing any task. For instance, ripping a 4x8 in half, the incra can still do it, sure its a couple extra steps, 3 hold downs instead of 1, remembering to add 2ft or whatever to the tape scale, having to read the tape scale as opposed to seeing a digital readout. But i can still do it. But i gain an awesome router setup, and great precision for when i do want to do those precise cuts. The incra uses a lead screw just like a metal mill would and those are all about precision.

I certainly have not made up my mind yet. I need to think whether its worth the money and the big question is if i really need it or would the SFC and wixey be more then enough. But I like to buy tools that are more then I need. It seems that whenever i buy something thinking, oh thats all i need. Its not 2 months later and guess what. Really could have used the bigger tool. Of course this is all within reason and budget.

Oh one last add-on.... if you order something from the Incra website, and sing up, they email you a coupon for 10 or 15% off your next order, so if you time that right, and buy a small item to start, then the big order with the coupon, some added savings to stretch your tool dollars...

btw, and I hate to throw a monkey wrench into your decision....but have you ruled out a small slider TS? That is the only other thing I would do next time...I like my PM2000 TS, but after 5 years of use, I really appreciate the value of a small sliding TS...not for sheets, (I relegate all large sheets to the Festool rail system) but for common smaller cuts.... Its so nice to let the saw move the work piece, vs. you forcing the workpiece against the friction of the table. I tried a few sliders and now drool for one...

Thanks for the tip on the coupon. The slider is out of the question. It past my budget. In fact the incra is really pushing my budget. If i was doing this every day i would do it. But at this point in my life, 29, i have a lot of other things i want to purchase. I think ill leave that one for later in life Btw..im assuming you mean a true slider table saw, not an addon like the grizzly sliding table.

[Ryan Dyer]

Ryan,

No. The sliding table, when locked, protrudes by about 4" to the back of the saw, and 12" to the front. The table itself is about 4' long, and the saw, with fence rails, is about 32" deep. As far as cutting the rails, I was surprised as well. I suppose i might have been able to shift everything like Jim did, but I didn't want the extra length, so I cut the rails. Also, I requested a kit from Grizzly with a longer power cord to allow me to mount the switch at the front of the table. Did I mention that I really like the sliding table? I just finished cross-cutting a couple of 4x8 sheets of plywood tonight. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to do that very easily with a sled.

Jeff,

Thanks for the dimensions. 4" would probably be doable. That would make the saw stick out probably 36-38" from the wall. more then i would like but could probably get by. I really like the sliding table, but i think i have decided to leave it for later, mainly for cost reasons. I can get the incra 5000 sled for about 1/3rd the price of the slider. I realize its not in the same league, but it will get me buy. Compared to what im doing now, the 5000 is a MAJOR upgrade. I figure later on down the road i could get a sliding table, and if i dont need the sled, take the miter off the sled and use it as a stand alone.

[Will Blick]

> According to some of the reviews they claim it has the least amount of deflection compared to the T style. Is there something else that gives you that opinion?


Well, the Incra FENCE alone is not as stiff as the big name fences, you can just look at them a see with your eyes...however, the Incra "can" be hinged at both sides of the rail, and this prevents fence movement, which can throw off the square of a cut. But to do this, you have to run over to the other side of the TS, and tighten the far side to the rail, which again, is a constant nuisance. So once again, the answer is both true n false, its according to how you want to use each. The benefit of the big name fences is, simple to set, relatively solid, specially if you don't put pressure on the far side of the fence where its not locked down.


Glad you provided more info..... as for moving the saw constantly.... this throws some monkey wrenches in your decision making. It took me and a helper about 1/2 day to get my Incra Rails Perfectly parallel AND level the entire lengths, and they are long, IIRC, about 65". (they will cut them to any length you want). Because the incra has rails on both sides, the system is very finicky in this regard, unlike a regular Fence which as the benefits of a single side rail. So moving the TS, will change the height of the rails and the rail guides can stick when one side is higher than the other and / or out of parallel, or have too much slop if the rails move inward.... this again throws off the square...sure you can constantly correct for this stuff, but it can be very time consuming. And that is my point.... you buy the incra system for one reason, precision cuts, repeatable cuts, incrementally spaced cuts with no effort or test cuts, etc. And it really is ideal for these tasks...but once you take a system that is set to work within .001" settings and start throwing all your components several thou at, you loose the extreme precision the system is designed for. I think you will be disappointed with the amount of tweaking. Once I got mine NUTZ on, its in lock down mode, and will never move, hence why I went with the short LS positioner. Glad you mentioned this, cause this is a critical decision factor for you.... if it were me, I would buy a big name fence and use the Wixey DRO, you have the best of all worlds, and with only one rail, you can move the saw around....assuming you don't support the end of the saw by the rail. With the Incra, the rails must be supported at the ends with legs....this is a HUGE difference when it comes to moving the saw. Mine is on a custom built mobile base but if I move it, the change in floor height will throw it out..... its rare any garage floor is dead level.


>At the moment, I am leaning towards the Incra for a couple reasons. First, with my limited experience, even though im doing construction grade stuff, i expect perfection. I expect everything to line up perfectly. Its probably the computer engineer in me. In the computer world everything is exact for the most part. I tell the computer to draw a line 100 pixels wide, its exactly 100 pixels wide. Currently i cut a board 4", well its not 4", its some where in the range of +- 1/32 of 4". Drives me crazy. The wixey would solve part of this, but you still cant move the fence in uniform increments. The incra would solve all of it, BUT i have to get used to the quarks of the incra.


You sound like me, scary... I am an engineer, ww is a side biz / hobby. My number one hobby / side biz, is photography, where I deal with printing images 20 ft long, then frame them myself in the wood shop...so I know all about tracking down pixels and precision in every step... its an obsession, trust me. And not a healthy one, I have a house full of gadgets that demonstrate my point :-) However, in engineering, the one thing you learn over time (cause we are all thick-in-the-head in this regard).... precision systems are only as precise as their weakest link. In addition, there is what we call tolerance stacking, where we place tolerances of different parts of a system atop each other, this finds the real-world tolerance of the entire system. Which is never anywhere near the precision of one component. Its this point that you see argued on ww forums all the time, as many don't understand that while .001" tolerances are ww are EXTREME, its the combination of all the tolerances that set the final tolerances, which is rarely this dream .001" value. But the tighter all the tolerances, the tighter the real-world tolerance. So, it sounds like to me, you are souped up over the 1 thous incremental positioning of the Incra, agreed, but that is only one part of the entire system. What happens when your rails are out of alignment from TS movement, and now your cuts are not square? What good is the .001" incremental movements? Get my drift here? (excuse the pun)

Based on all your criteria, I think you would be much happier with a Big Name fence, Wixey DRO and a positioner like this, which can still assure you .001" movements of the fence.... call it a hybrid system which is more friendly to TS re-positioning....

21639-02-500.jpg


The only caveat to this is the router table.... and IMO, the real value of the Incra is incremental cutting, such as edge joinery, DT's, Box joints, etc. However, I would suggest with the savings, if you plan to do this type of work, its better to do on a dedicated jig such as a Leigh or PC...you will have plenty of savings to pay for it.... then for router fence, something like the Woodpecker Super Fence is superb for edge profiling....

hope this helps...

[Ryan Dyer]

Glad you provided more info..... as for moving the saw constantly.... this throws some monkey wrenches in your decision making. It took me and a helper about 1/2 day to get my Incra Rails Perfectly parallel AND level the entire lengths, and they are long, IIRC, about 65". (they will cut them to any length you want). Because the incra has rails on both sides, the system is very finicky in this regard, unlike a regular Fence which as the benefits of a single side rail. So moving the TS, will change the height of the rails and the rail guides can stick when one side is higher than the other and / or out of parallel, or have too much slop if the rails move inward.... this again throws off the square...sure you can constantly correct for this stuff, but it can be very time consuming. And that is my point.... you buy the incra system for one reason, precision cuts, repeatable cuts, incrementally spaced cuts with no effort or test cuts, etc. And it really is ideal for these tasks...but once you take a system that is set to work within .001" settings and start throwing all your components several thou at, you loose the extreme precision the system is designed for. I think you will be disappointed with the amount of tweaking. Once I got mine NUTZ on, its in lock down mode, and will never move, hence why I went with the short LS positioner. Glad you mentioned this, cause this is a critical decision factor for you.... if it were me, I would buy a big name fence and use the Wixey DRO, you have the best of all worlds, and with only one rail, you can move the saw around....assuming you don't support the end of the saw by the rail. With the Incra, the rails must be supported at the ends with legs....this is a HUGE difference when it comes to moving the saw. Mine is on a custom built mobile base but if I move it, the change in floor height will throw it out..... its rare any garage floor is dead level.

Good point. If don't get the incra, im getting the G1023RLX which is this one http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3...e-Saw/G1023RLX. Based on the pic, it looks like the extension table support legs attach to the rail. So i am going to have similar issues with this setup as well. Of course there is less contacts point etc, so its probably more forgiving.

I wondered if moving it would cause issues. I see a lot of saws on mobiles bases so i figured it must not affect it to much. I was planning on building my own out out of some thick steel to make it very ridgid. But it will still flex. What i should do, regardless of what saw im going to purchase, is figure out where im going to use it in the garage and mark the area on floor. Do my setup in that specific location and then move it to that same location every time i use it. I think that would help minimize the issue.

You sound like me, scary... I am an engineer, ww is a side biz / hobby. My number one hobby / side biz, is photography, where I deal with printing images 20 ft long, then frame them myself in the wood shop...so I know all about tracking down pixels and precision in every step... its an obsession, trust me. And not a healthy one, I have a house full of gadgets that demonstrate my point :-) However, in engineering, the one thing you learn over time (cause we are all thick-in-the-head in this regard).... precision systems are only as precise as their weakest link. In addition, there is what we call tolerance stacking, where we place tolerances of different parts of a system atop each other, this finds the real-world tolerance of the entire system. Which is never anywhere near the precision of one component. Its this point that you see argued on ww forums all the time, as many don't understand that while .001" tolerances are ww are EXTREME, its the combination of all the tolerances that set the final tolerances, which is rarely this dream .001" value. But the tighter all the tolerances, the tighter the real-world tolerance. So, it sounds like to me, you are souped up over the 1 thous incremental positioning of the Incra, agreed, but that is only one part of the entire system. What happens when your rails are out of alignment from TS movement, and now your cuts are not square? What good is the .001" incremental movements? Get my drift here? (excuse the pun)

Your absolutely right about the tolerances stacking and its only as good as the weakest one. And i really am not going for .001. I think its the repeat ability factor more and not having to plan my cuts as much thats sparks my interest. I was really impressed after watching the incra videos as to how easy it was to cut exact boards. One thing i do know, if one board is off, then my entire project is off so i try to make each piece as accurate as possible.

Def going to have to think this all over for a while...

[Will Blick]

> I see a lot of saws on mobiles bases so i figured it must not affect it to much. I was planning on building my own out out of some thick steel to make it very ridgid. But it will still flex.

If you put a 600 lb saw down on a semi flat surface, all 4 legs will touch the ground, but quite often, at the price of being slightly tweaked.... no big deal if you are not after Incra like precision.... the avg TS user is not chasing the level of precision you are after.... so that is the reason "it's allright".... make sense?

> Your absolutely right about the tolerances stacking and its only as good as the weakest one.

Well, tolerance stacking takes the worst of all the tolerances within a system and ADDS them... so if your system has 3 tolerances +/- .003", if all tolerances lean in the same direction, you will be out .009"..... the point of the "weakest link" I was making is... if you moving the saw throws your rails out, by cocking then a tad.... you will be at the mercy of this weakness, which negates the Incras high precision. Of course, you can re tweak each time after you set up, assure squareness, re set blade to fence distance to match scale, etc The avg. ww'er is not bothered being off measurements in thousands. How radical this will be with your set up, depends on so many factors, its hard to determine how good/bad it will be.

All I can say is, if I had to move my saw every time I used it, I would never EVER put an Incra on it...the Big Name fence and DRO would be more than good enough...

You did not mention about the type of router work you will do, which is where the incra really shines, but only in the areas I mentioned... and even there, the Dovetail jigs are so well built and versatile, I gave up using the Incra for this task....tried it a few times, worked great, but my gosh, the set up, thinking, setting, re-setting, testing, etc. Compare that to pushing a hand router with a bearing against a high precision template.... its a no-brainer...simple vs. Incra. This is why the Incra can really be a love/hate thing.

Also, based on the type of work you are mentioning, I think you are over estimating the level of precision required.... metal machinist talk in thous, whereas precision ww at best talk in hundredths. The one exception to this in ww, is edge joinery such as drawer boxes... where thous really matter, other wise the two parts won't fit together. This was Incra real claim to fame, precision router fences...but in the last 5-10 years, there has been an explosion of high quality template based jigs for edge joinery, making the Incra have less appeal in this regard....