Electrical Panel question

[David Keller NC]

I got 2 more quotes over the past couple days. Again the first was for $3600, the second was for $2050 for everything and $1775 if I do the grounding myself, and the third was for $1150 if I do the grounding. The ground will consist of two 5/8" 8' rods with #4 wires, as well as #4 wire to the water main with bonding jumper.

I think I'm going to go with the low bidder on this one but not just for financial reasons. I feel I understand the scope of work enough to know the job does not cost $3600 or even $2000.

A couple questions:
1) one of the main reasons, other than safety, is to get 220 down to my basement shop, where there is already 110. Do you all think that for now I should run some romex down there to get an outlet, or should I plan for a subpanel?
2) As I plan to add more circuits to the main panel at some point, how should I allow for access to run these circuits so I don't have to cut drywall each time? There is a crawl space above the mudroom where the panel is, so I would plan to go up there somehow. Should i have some kind of chase?

Thanks for all the help so far!

Matt - Yes, you're going to really wish you had a sub-panel for the shop if you just install outlets from the main breaker panel. There are multiple reasons, not the least of which is what Mike H mentioned, which is killing the power to the shop machines from a panel with one switch. This wouldn't matter to me (no kids), but if I had kids in the house, there'd be no question about a sub-panel with a padlock.

From the standpoint of running more circuits, the NEC doesn't require you to put more drywall up to meet code - you could leave it open until you get most everything to your satisfaction.

[Matt Day]

Thanks for the comments guys. I looked up the contractor's license and he checks out.

I think I'm going to just run 1 run of Romex to my basement for now for the 220 tools. I just need to get the shop up and running, then when I'm happy with the layout maybe I'll run a subpanel.

Try as I might, I for the life of me can't find where my existing panel is grounded. The neutral/ground bar has individual neutrals and ground as usual, at the bottom is the poco's neutral, and at the top is about 10 wires twisted together that come from house circuits. Given I'm not rooting around in there completely, but I can't see where a larger ground wire is anywhere (and there's no ground on the water line). Is it possible my panel isn't grounded at all?

If I can find existing ground, it will minimize what grounding I have to install.

I'm planning on having him start next week, but I need to get his estimate in writing first (he told me over the phone yesterday).

[Ralph Butts]

Hi Matt, here is my two cents for what it is worth. Regardless of what currently exists in your panel the contractor is going to replace the panel, the service entrance cables and the load breakers and most importantly the bonding jumper. If I am correct from your last post you will then be responsible for driving the two ground rods and connecting the grounding electrode conductor (new). Then all you will have to do is install the bonding jumber to the water pipe. I think you can effectively ignore any components you find related to the existing service grounding electrode and bonding jumpers since you are (and want to) install these items new. I say this because you have raised the possibility that the existing grounding electrode conductor may not be installed. Since your existing service is 100A your existing grounding electrode conductor will likley only be a #6 or 8(Al or Cu respectively). If it was installed incorrectly or God forbid it is just buried in the ground you don't want to reuse any of this existing system. Not to mention the electrode conductor for your new 200 A server must be a #2 or perhaps even a 1/0 depending on the type of wire used. Grounding is a life safety issue and if it were my house and I was replacing the service I would just drive the rods and run the new grounding conductor along side the service conductors coming into the panel. The water main bonding jumper is really not that bad to install. It doesn't have to be pretty, a clamp some green or bare Cu then land it on the existing bonding jumper lug in the panel.

[Richard Jones]

minimum size of a grounding electrode conductor for a 200 amp service is a # 4 copper (or #2 Al, which I've never seen).

Rich

[Dan Hintz]

Many electricians (and I know because I have fixed my fair share of this particular mistake) ring the wire when attempting to cut the sheat for insertion into either the meter or service lugs.

I can see this happening, but you have to be pretty ham-fisted to create a deep cut. A seriously deep cut may reduce cross-sectional area, what, maybe 10%... way more than it should ever be, but I can't believe that's serious enough to cause fires (though if they're cutting it that deep, they likely made other contributing mistakes). It's easier to lose a larger percentage to nicking a wire when the wire is small... for large-gauge wires, you have so much more leeway.

[Matt Day]

Just a question about the grounding wire: I know it's supposed to be #4 bare copper wire, but it's supposed to be continuous I believe so I was going to start the wire run at the city side of the main water shut off valve, jump it across the meter to the house side, then go outside to the two 5/8" eight foot ground rods, then to the panel. All wire attachments will be with mechanical ground clamps (the ones that you screw two bolts to tighten it down), and I'll use those regular white plastic wire clips with nails to attach the wire to the walls/ceiling where necessary.

Does this sound like the right plan?

Thanks guys, it will be nice to have this done so I can get some power to my machines!

[Anthony Whitesell]

Pthers will have to chime in on the connections, as I don't have city water and my plumbing does not get connected like yours. I can say that my inspector wanted it continuous as you mentioned, and for the placement of my second ground rod preferred the wire run on the outside of the house (I didn't care, so I did as he asked). My first ground ground was installed in a hole drilled through the slab (and then sealed) directly below the sub panel. When my PoCo rep came out to check the current equipment before authorizing the upgrade on their side, I asked him where he suggested I drive ground rod #2. As they need to be six feet apart, to the left was the porch, straight out was the driveway, to the right was the asphault walkway. The only option left was around the corner along the front of the house. That made the ground wire almost 15' long, running 3' up from the panel, 1' out over the foundation, 2' to the corner, 1' along the house to be back even with rod #1, then the 6' run. But I have a "surface drain" of 1 1/2" gravel 2' deep along the front of the house, so the run went 2' down and 1 1/2' out. I dug up the gravel and drove the ground rod through the bottom of the drainage ditch and clamped the ground wire with a burial rated clamp (not all are). To avoid the gravel chaffing the wire, I put spiral wrap wire loom around it where it was running near the gravel. I didn't want the wire laying on the ground or buried for all the distance, so I used the plastic cables clips and used some short tapcons to attach it to the top edge of the foundation out of side and harm's way. This piece was a heck of a project in and of itself, but was really the best solution and the inspector liked all the extra precautions.

[Matt Day]

After I install the bonding jumper at the water main, I plan to get the 4 bare outside to the two ground rods as soon as I can. These 2 ground rods are in a planter bed in front of my house - located there because the rest of the possible locations are either asphalt driveway or concrete walks. After the ground rods the wire will travel about 30' to get back to the panel, for a total run from the wate meter to the panel of about 70'.

Does it matter if the ground wire is on the inside or outside of the house after the ground rods and before the panel? Once it goes outside to the ground rod, should it stay outside as long as possible? The wire needs to go passed my garage entrance so it would have to be run in a visible location. If I can come back inside it will be unseen.

[Matt Day]

Just to close the loop on this for anyone reading it in the future:

I ran the #4 solid ground wire from the water meter outside to both ground rods, and finally back into the house to the panel. I also tied the hot water to the cold water with a small piece of wire. This cost about $200 after all was said and done.

I had the low-bidder do the panel/socket/mast install last Thursday for $1150. I'm glad I was there, to babysit a little as well as to learn about the house's wiring and the new installation.

I had the inspection done today and it passed without a hitch. It wasn't exactly the most thorough inspection I've seen done, but I'm not complaining! I'll call the electrical company and have them upgrade thier lines (no charge) as soon as they can.

I also ran a 220V circuit to the basement and finally have power to my TS and jointer, now I just need to clean up the job and get it organized so I can use them!

So my total cost was about $1400 and my time to upgrade my panel from 100A to 200A.

[Anthony Whitesell]

So as of right now you can draw more current by your main panel (200A) than the power companies overhead lines to your house can handle?

[Dan Hintz]

So as of right now you can draw more current by your main panel (200A) than the power companies overhead lines to your house can handle?

I read that the same way and it has me worried...

[Dan Friedrichs]

I read that the same way and it has me worried...

Don't worry - the fire will be outside

[Matt Day]

I guess technically you're right, but I only added one 220V circuit and the rest are the same. And being the Fall there is no AC running, and I don't plan on turning on all major electrical devices at one time then going to the basement to joint some boards, so I'm not worried. The poco is coming out in the next 3-5 days to "check if the service need to be upgraded" (which it does).