Looking for a way to get a good finish in Softwoods (After the planer)

[Nick Sorenson]

I use a good deal of Alder flat wide pieces for instruments and am quite frankly getting tired of Random Orbital sanding to get ready for applying the finish. Why don't I like the DA sander? Lots of reasons:

1. It leaves pigtail scratches that stick out like a sore thumb and that makes me have to sand finer than I'd like to get them small enough not to stand out. BUT... they'll always be there just smaller.
2. It makes a lot of dust.
3. It is slow
4. It uses up sandpaper

I'm trying to find a better way to do this. I have card scrapers and I like them. But it seems like they tear the Alder. I'd really like to get a nice even smooth finish by hand if there's a good tool that will make shavings instead of sawdust.

How would you go from planer to finish room by hand?

[Terry Beadle]

I'd use a 47~50 degree bedded japanese smoother with a freshly sharpened blade.

[Stuart Tierney]

I'd use a 47~50 degree bedded japanese smoother with a freshly sharpened blade.

I'd go with a stock as a rock 38 degree myself. Nothing flash or fancy, just decent quality will be more than adequate.

Folks would look at me like I've got a second or even third head if I asked for anything over 45 degrees...

Which reminds me, I need to prod and poke them...

Better go do that.

Stu.

P.S. If a kanna is too terrifying, then nearly any decent handplane should be able to do the job well enough. It's just that what you're after in a handplane is, well, anything iron would just be uncouth! I'd deliberately get myself a decent kanna for this job before I'd even contemplate the LN LA smooth plane that's sitting not 3 feet from me.

[Prashun Patel]

Are your scrapers 'tearing' the alder or 'fuzzing' it? Maybe the scraper needs better honing/rolling?

I've scraped and planed pine and dfir 2x4's, and the key for me is getting and keeping yr blade super sharp. Light cuts; don't be stingy about resharpening. Persist. If I can do it, you can.

[Chris Griggs]

As others have said a sharp blade on just about any smooth plane, and light cuts - also when planing really soft wood don't use too much downward pressure as a metal plane can dent the wood fairly easily if you lean to one side or the other accidentally. For this reason I think a woody would be easier to use for this task then a metal bodied plane, but once again any sharp decently tuned smoother should work.

I've had better luck scraping hardwoods then softwood, but that doesn't say much since my scraping and scraper prep is inconsistent at best.

It's funny, planing super hard figured wood tends to get all the attention, but really soft wood can be quite difficult as well - mild hardwoods seem to be the easiest to plane in my experience.

[bill tindall]

There is some flaw in your ROS technique or equipment. An air driven ROS using the proper progression of grit sizes will leave a defect free surface.

But, to avoid the dust a hand plane is the solution. If you think using a ROS is difficult you may find the hand plane more so. But it makes less dust.

[Nick Sorenson]

There is some flaw in your ROS technique or equipment. An air driven ROS using the proper progression of grit sizes will leave a defect free surface.

But, to avoid the dust a hand plane is the solution. If you think using a ROS is difficult you may find the hand plane more so. But it makes less dust.

Not to disagree with you but if you mean swirl/pigtail by defect free, I have to disagree. The manufacturers try to push swirl free but just the nature of a random orbit will create pigtails. It has to just like an inline sander or belt sander will leave inline scratches. I've sanded lots of finishes and wood pieces both with orbitals and use the technique recommended by Dynabrade basically parallel passes in one direction then in the opposite. This leave a nice looking finish but upon close inspection there will ALWAYS be pigtails. You have to look to see them but they will be there. Stains highlight them in light colored woods. If you've ever sanded a finish and buffed/polished on something like a table top, you'll find them even more so since it's much more obvious in a glossy surface. I have a number of ROS (air and electric) and they all do it. It's not pronounced but it's there. When I need a perfect finish (upon VERY close inspection) the ROS isn't going to do it.

[David Weaver]

I'm in with stu, my favorite would be a japanese plane, standard angle (8/10, or about 38 or so degrees), for something like alder, but a sharp plane with steeper angle like Terry mentioned can do good work, too as long as it's not too steep.

However, a western smoother with common pitch, proper sharpening gear and a clean sole can make just about an indistinguishable finish compared to a japanese plane if you're afraid of japanese planes, it just needs to be a case of "a little more of it's the indian and a little less is the arrow".

I believe Warren Mickley won one of the woodworking show planing competitions for finish quality with a standard bench plane. I'm sure warren has considerable skill to say the least, but I have not had any trouble getting a great finish off of bench planes in soft stuff, just would prefer japanese planes in it if money is no object and I can get something with a very fine grained iron.

You are standing in a spot looking at a world of good options with musical grade alder, almost all of them that relate to planing will provide a surface prep level that is otherworldly compared to all but the very finest abrasives (as in micromesh fine).

Presumably you are doing guitar bodies if you're working a lot of alder? If so, do you have plans for cleaning up the edges? The quality of the finish on the top and back will be a snap, but the edges may give you a bit more grief.

[Chris Griggs]

I hope this doesn't end up high jacking this thread from the OP, but why do Japanese planes get away with using lower angles then western planes? I've noticed that even on ones marketed for hard woods (at least at Stus store) are typically 45 degrees at most - often more like 40-42?

[David Weaver]

I wouldn't say they necessarily get away with it, it's just their use.

Having the iron wedge tightly in wood is a benefit - often western woodies that someone might compare are not comparable because they don't have the same large iron with a tight fit all they way down to the very end of the iron.

As far as not getting away with it, if you use a 45 degree japanese plane where you'd use a 55 degree infill with a tight mouth and properly fit iron, you will have a lot more tearout if you aren't cautious.

And, if you spend the time tuning a bench plane at common pitch and use it with as much care and sharpness as a japanese plane, you'll also find out that it does better than you'd think it would.

Smoothing is one thing, dimensioning and flattening rough wood is entirely another - you can't so much rely on sharpness and a small bite.

[phil harold]

After I sand with a random orbit I sand by hand
you know those 9x11 sheets you cut into 2 or 3" strips, roll, flatten, and then sand by hand...

[Stuart Tierney]

I believe it's a combination of factors.

Firstly, the basic steel used generally allows a better edge. Folks might argue it, and I can't give hard evidence to that fact, but I can say that having used an A2, O1, Cast Steel and a Blue Steel blade in the same plane, all blades sharpened identically to 30 degrees, the Blue steel just cuts cleaner.

Next, when the blade is in the body, it's such a tight, close fit that the parts are effectively one monolithic chunk. Vibration is functionally non-existent unless you do something silly, and having a blade that effectively weighs "3 pounds" probably helps somewhat.

A properly set up kanna will only touch at the leading edge of the body and just ahead of the mouth. I can't put into words how effective this actually is, or whether it makes a quantifiable difference at all. What it does do is reduce the 'pull' of the plane, and that allows the plane to move across the wood faster. The plane effectively cuts off tear out before it can start.

The kanna we have today are at the tail end of centuries of development. I'd suggest that any bugs were ironed out before any of our great grandparents were even more than a few cells dividing.

There could be other reasons, but I believe it's largely a good blade that takes a great edge and the blade/body being a functionally single unit.

The only proof I have is a piece of curly maple, planed with a 42 degree kanna on one side, a LN LA smoother on the other with a effective angle of 50 in the blade, 12 in the bed = 62 degrees, and the two sides are chalk and cheese, literally. The LN side looks like chalk, and looks good all by itself. Flip it over and what the kanna did to the same piece of wood is astonishing. All because it worked at that lower angle.

That, and a really REALLY sharp blade is not only liberating but also grants great liberties with what you can get away with. Any plane will benefit from a very sharp blade.

That's only what I believe to be true though. Seems to work just fine.

Stu.

[Chris Griggs]

Interesting info David and Stu -

Stu, I just may need to send you some more of my money next time i have some...

(i have been finding myself pulling my LV block plane a lot lately - perhaps a sign of things to come)

[Mark Roderick]

As an alternative to using a plane, use the ROS only to remove the planer marks. From there, sand by hand grit by grit. You can actually get into a sort of zen state sanding by hand. It creates dust for sure, but it's quiet, puts you close to the wood, is hard to screw up, and produces excellent results. Once the surface is finished I think it is impossible to tell the difference between a hand-sanded surface and a planed surface.