Interesting email I recieved today......

[Hilel Salomon]

The fact is that we produce engineers, computer science people and qualified personnel in other technological areas. Corporations don't want to hire Americans, pay them decent wages, social security taxes, provide health care benefits etc., when they can farm these jobs out (thanks to communications improvements) to foreign workers. Even more damaging is the fact that many of our corporations which still have great technological processes developed in the US, make deals with China (and to a lesser degree India) whereby the processes, patents, etc. have to be shared and eventually are stolen from us. The CEO's who make these deals don't care that the end result will cripple their own corporations. They have stocks and balloon clauses in their contracts which will allow them to bail out with incredible wealth long before the corporations sink. This process of selling America began a while back as our automotive industry sat on home grown technology and watched as Japan used this to cripple our own car makers. It has, unfortunately spread everywhere.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Hilel....I retired from one of the largest corporations in the world. They employ thousands of US engineers. I disagree with your statement.

Yours is another example of a biased view of only one side of the picture.

Before you demonize one side, try to give an accurate picture of the whole process.

US corporations would love to do business here in the US but they are in the business to make profit. When taxes, labor costs, material costs and ecological regulations make it less profitable to manufacture products here, to continue making profits, they will move the plants over seas.

Companies that don't make a profit soon go out of business and don't support any workers or retirees.

[Keith Outten]

Ken,

Large companies don't employ the majority, small companies are where the rubber meets the road.

I think there may be some good news in this story. We may see a massive increase in the number of small businesses. The tradeoff between economy of scale and lower overhead may be able to level the playing field at some point in time.....I hope so.

Consider that a local woodworker might be able to purchase a CNC machine and right out of the gate be able to support other small companies in his area. Basically what could evolve is a "BORG" collective that combines the talents and energy of many shops that might be able to compete with large corporations that operate offshore and have to deal with shipping and unreasonably high management salaries.

My products are made in Virginia, the materials I purchase are all made in America and I have found a way to be profitable, so can others if they are innovative and willing to take some risk.
.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Keith,

As of June of this year, the large corporation from which I retired employs 133,000 US citizens and if I remember correctly around 288,000 people world wide.

Beyond that, since 2007 it has hired 8,000 new US employees and 7,000 of those were for US manufacturing jobs.

The subsidiary I worked for employs thousands of engineers...........recently a big thing was made that they were moving the x-ray business headquarters to China and training 65 Chinese engineers. The corporation thinks the US public is going to get their wish. There will probably be a US national health care system in the next few years. Currently the US x-ray market is stagnant and once a national health care system is engaged, the market will become a diminishing market. China's health care system is expanding and is thought to continue this trend for the next 30 years. So to better interface with the people in the expanding market, the headquarters for JUST the x-ray portion of the business is moving there and they are training 65 Chinese engineers to interface with the doctors and hospital administrators fluently in the native languages there. It only makes sense. But the email going around that caused concern to a very dear older cousin of mine made a big thing about training those 65 engineers. In the Pacific Northwest we have over 80 engineers and that just takes in the states of Washington, Alaska, Oregon, northern half of Idaho and Hawaii. Those states have a very low population density. We have individual states that have more than 100 engineers. 65 is nothing but the email, politically motivated and bent, makes a big deal of 65 engineers.

And just like the auto companies, this large corporation contracts a lot business out to small US businesses which aids economies. I know, I have often hired local machine shops to manufacture one time parts for me to fix a machine....hired a specific crane operator and rigging company out of Spokane to move all of our 18,000-25,000 pound MR magnets into and out of hospitals without destroying the supercooled magnet or the hospital....hired local heating, air conditioning and plumbing companies to work on the cooling systems for MR scanners.

Large corporations are made up of everyday people who live in your local community, attend your churches and shop in you local businesses. It's wrong to demonize an entire business based on corporate CEOs salaries and benefits. I won't defend what the CEOs make. I don't think it's right either.

Why aren't people just as aggressively attacking baseball player salaries or football players salaries? I would suggest that the degree of education and skills to operate an international business is as least as great and important as being a professional athlete.

Keep in mind, because of its global presence, large corporations help reduce the trade deficit by exporting products and bringing profits back to the US.

[Scott Shepherd]

Keep in mind, because of its global presence, it helps reduce the trade deficit by exporting products and bringing profits back to the US.

I think you need to do some more fact checking there Ken. Last time I heard, there was over 4 TRILLION dollars sitting in companies overseas that they can't get into the US because it will be taxed so heavily. The CEO's of many of those companies, that are sitting on billions and billions of dollars said they would bring that money into the US and foster R&D and production if allowed to get it into the country. However, they can't. If you had $100 billion dollars sitting in the bank, overseas, and you could spend it somewhere that allowed you to spend it all, or you could take it to a place that said "Sure, you can bring it here, but you'll need to give me 35% of all of it first", which would you do?

With all the screaming about spending money to create jobs, why not allow these global corporations to bring their money here and invest in the USA workers?

Fact is, they can't bring their global profits here without massive taxation, taxation that's almost unequaled anywhere else in the world. That's well documented and not an opinion, that's a fact.

[Rich Engelhardt]

It's all immaterial....

Even if the jobs were here,,,,,it's far too "comfortable" for far too many people to fill them.

I know of no less than 5 able bodied immediate family members that consider "having a disablity" as a valid career goal.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Scott.......... When is the last time you voluntarily paid more taxes than the law requires? Corporations are not in the business of paying taxes.

133,000 well paid US employees with benefits........check that fact out Scott.

Profit is not a bad word. Businesses....small or large make a profit or go out of business.

Read my first post.......the cost of labor......taxes......materials......transportatio n...ecological regulations......consumer spending..and other things...all factor in to why manufacturing jobs left this country........

I will not defend everything large corporations do............but it is just as wrong to condemn them across the board as the great evil too.

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott.......... When is the last time you voluntarily paid more taxes than the law requires? Corporations are not in the business of paying taxes.

133,000 well paid US employees with benefits........check that fact out Scott.

Profit is not a bad word. Businesses....small or large make a profit or go out of business.

Read my first post.......the cost of labor......taxes......materials......transportatio n...ecological regulations......consumer spending..and other things...all factor in to why manufacturing jobs left this country........

I will not defend everything large corporations do............but it is just as wrong to condemn them across the board as the great evil too.

Ken, what are you talking about? Where did I say anything about corporations not paying taxes? I said, they have a ton of cash, sitting in banks, and they won't bring it here because of the taxes on that. Seems to me I was agreeing with what you said.

133,000 US employees, so what? What's that prove? That you can cite 1 example of a large company with a large US footprint? One example doesn't make a trend, it makes it an exception to the rule. You don't discredit what's happening because you have one example you know. That's like people where the unemployment is at 3% saying "There's no problem with the economy these days". Sure, not where you live, but tell that to the people where the rate is 12%. Again, citing your personal experience in one company doesn't mean anything.

I'd like for you to find where I said that corporations were bad, or making a profit is a bad thing. I never said either. I simply stated that there are TRILLIONS of dollars in cash, in overseas accounts, of US based corporations, sitting on the sidelines, waiting to be invested. It sits there because of the taxes, not because of anything else. Solve that issue and allow them to bring the profits back into the USA and it would pump trillions of dollars into the economy, which, in my personal view, would be a great thing.

[Paul McGaha]

Just my $.02 but it seems to me that since Chinese (and others) labor is so much cheaper than American labor, and the products they turn out are as good as they are (say Grizzly tools for example) I think these manufacturing jobs are gone for good.

In regard to manufacturing, The 20th century was no doubt America's time. The 21st century appears to me to probably belong to someone else.

Things change. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

Our vehicles are built better and last much longer than say vehicles built in the 70's. Our lawnmowers and appliances are built much worse and dont last nearly as long as those made in the 70's ????

Still, You have to have faith, do your part, make decisions the best you can, Hope America will be ok. It is true that some things are bad but there is still more good than bad that can be said about our country. No place I'd rather be.

PHM

[Mike Henderson]

Ken, what are you talking about? Where did I say anything about corporations not paying taxes? I said, they have a ton of cash, sitting in banks, and they won't bring it here because of the taxes on that. Seems to me I was agreeing with what you said.

133,000 US employees, so what? What's that prove? That you can cite 1 example of a large company with a large US footprint? One example doesn't make a trend, it makes it an exception to the rule. You don't discredit what's happening because you have one example you know. That's like people where the unemployment is at 3% saying "There's no problem with the economy these days". Sure, not where you live, but tell that to the people where the rate is 12%. Again, citing your personal experience in one company doesn't mean anything.

I'd like for you to find where I said that corporations were bad, or making a profit is a bad thing. I never said either. I simply stated that there are TRILLIONS of dollars in cash, in overseas accounts, of US based corporations, sitting on the sidelines, waiting to be invested. It sits there because of the taxes, not because of anything else. Solve that issue and allow them to bring the profits back into the USA and it would pump trillions of dollars into the economy, which, in my personal view, would be a great thing.

There's no guarantee that if companies could bring profits back to the US that they would do anything with it besides pay dividends. Companies are not starved for cash. Many, today, have lots of cash in the US but are not investing it because they don't see enough demand for their products.

If we were to allow those foreign profits to be brought back tax free, the only people who would benefit are the stockholders. And, incidentally, companies get credit for taxes paid to foreign governments on their foreign profits - so the taxes they would pay are the difference between US rates and foreign rates.

And don't you think it fair that companies pay their fair share. It shouldn't only be the middle class that pays tax.

Mike

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mike,

Has it ever occured to you that a lot of middle class people are shareholders?

And....the statement that only the middle class that pay taxes. Absolutely absurd statement that can't be factually backed up. Period. Certainly shows a political bias however.

[Phil Thien]

It's all immaterial....

Even if the jobs were here,,,,,it's far too "comfortable" for far too many people to fill them.

I know of no less than 5 able bodied immediate family members that consider "having a disablity" as a valid career goal.

That is worth repeating, so I'm quoting it.

We've made it too easy on people that just refuse to work.

[Samuel Butler]

The cost of health care is also a major factor in the movement of manufacturing jobs oversees.

We can lament the passing of the old ways or we could look to the information age as an area where the US will excel.
And would we really want to exchange clean air and water (ie less government regulation) for more manufacturing jobs? Seems short sighted.

[Leo Graywacz]

The US seems to think that it is the business mans responsibility to take care of the health care aspect of the population. I don't see why businesses should be responsible for it. If they want to provide it it is a nice perk. But to have it mandated that you provide it for your employees is just something that will drive the business to countries where this isn't required.

If the people want healthcare provided to them they should be taxed as an individual to have the service. I see no reason why a business should be responsible for the health of their employees. It is beneficial to have a healthy workforce, but the individual should be responsible enough to take care of their own care.

[Scott Shepherd]

There's no guarantee that if companies could bring profits back to the US that they would do anything with it besides pay dividends. Companies are not starved for cash. Many, today, have lots of cash in the US but are not investing it because they don't see enough demand for their products.

If we were to allow those foreign profits to be brought back tax free, the only people who would benefit are the stockholders. And, incidentally, companies get credit for taxes paid to foreign governments on their foreign profits - so the taxes they would pay are the difference between US rates and foreign rates.

And don't you think it fair that companies pay their fair share. It shouldn't only be the middle class that pays tax.

Mike

That's easy to write into law- spend "X" amount on R&D and you get "X" amount of a break.

Also, you mention "shareholders" benefitting. Last time I checked, shareholders are people just like you and me, not some dirty word. Last time I checked, most people's 401K's and other retirement plans are based around increasing their "shareholder" value. So do I think bringing money back into the US and giving it to shareholders is a bad idea? No, I think it's a great idea. Anything that puts money into the pockets of the American people without having to take it out of someone else's pockets is a great idea, in my opinion.

Define Fair Share for me Mike. I'm always amazed at how some people believe hitting corporations with taxes is a great idea. Let's take oil as an example. Tax the crap out of it. What do you think is going to happen? They will just accept lower profits (which happen to be some of the lowest percentages in the corporate climate anyway)? No, raise their tax $1 per gallon and the gas prices at the pump will raise $1 per gallon the next day. So who gets hurt? The average person. So the great idea to "tax" the fat cats always ends up costing the middle and lower income people, who can't afford it. I'd challenge anyone to list examples of when additional taxes or burdens were put on companies that they didn't pass on.

How many people reading this have been called into the conference room and told this - "Our Health Care costs are rising, so effective 01/01/2011, your health care costs will go up"? I'd venture to say almost everyone working for someone has had that conversation. So when you raise prices, who pays? Did your employer eat the increases in their cost? No. They passed them straight through to the people working for a living.

So, yeah, let's tax the heck out of everything. It'll do nothing but help all the little people, right?