Narex Chisels

[Charlie MacGregor]

I started prepping my Narex bevel edge chisels, hoping to get away with a light flattening. What I've found instead are rather discouraging, large hollows. About 6 hours and copious swarf later I'm 0 for 3 on an 8 piece set and pretty discouraged. I put the 2" on a belt sander in a moment of irrationality and muffed it. It will only be good for riving and sharpening pencils from here on out! I thought about a plate and diamonds but the idea of investing anything more in this experiment irks me. So... has anyone had any luck and found a semi flat one of these tools, because right now I'm not inclined to even try another of the set. If I don't hear encouraging news the whole set goes to my brother in law and it will serve him right! Maybe I'm expecting too much from an eight dollar chisel

[Russell Sansom]

Aside from the metallurgy, the most important difference between Narex-like chisels and, say, Lie-Nielsen chisels is that you don't have to flatten the backs on the LN's. Even if my time is worth only $20 an hour the Lie-Nielsen's turn out to be cheaper or almost. Sometimes folks on the forum declare that they can flatten a chisel in 5 or 10 minutes, but I haven't figured out how they do it.

I just sold a set of Crowns on Ebay because I was 3 chisels into the 11-piece set when I realized I would be too old to use them by the time they were usable. For me, life is too short to spend endless painful hours flattening chisels. Wish I'd thought of the brother-in-law idea!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

How was the hollow going? I must have lucked out on mine - it had a hollow, but I was able to pretty quickly get the full edge along the tips and sides level, and left it at that - a bit of hollow behind the cutting edge shouldn't be a problem if you have a good bearing edge. (akin to a Japanese chisel, I suppose.)

I had one where I had a decent hollow, but the back was flattening out before tip - the cutting edge wasn't getting lapped. I just took it to the grinder and removed maybe a 1/16th from the tip and then went back to lapping, no problem.

A couple of vintage chisels I've gotten have had a "hump" in them - the back is convex, rather than having a hollow - which makes lapping near impossible - on those, I took a small grinding wheel in a drill and purpose made a slight hollow - a few minutes of grind, lap, grind, lap to keep from removing too much, and the thing levelled out quickly. (All I really needed to do was grind enough hollow to get a good bearing surface that wouldn't rock for lapping, but I went for a bit of a hollow to speed the process along - as I've lapped the back over repeated use, this has mostly disappeared, it wasn't large.)

[Tony Zaffuto]

Hmmmm.....We generally pay extra to get that hollow on Japanese chisels!

I got a 1-1/2" Narex bench chisel and a 2" on backorder from LV, last week. The 1-1/2" flattened as easily as most other chisels I have (a lot--both vintage and modern, including AIs and LNs). The first thing I tried was seeing how far out the back was--not too bad, but it did have a hollow, which doesn't bother me, as long as I get the area immediately behind the edge flat. For flattening, instead of my normal oilstones, I used my waterstones, working through 220, 1000, 4000 and 8000 grits, and taking about 15 minutes total. I do have a bit of a hollow, but there is about 3/8" behind the edge that is flat. With future sharpenings, as with Japanese chisels, the hollow will disappear, with typical sharpenings.

Don't overthink sharpening! I don't believe there are shortcuts, such as a powered sander, for flattening. Take your time and let the stones do their work (you don't need 10 tons force pressing down on the stone).

What I don't like about the Narex, are the fugly handles! Tonight, I think I'll make up some London pattern handles, using a LV handle I purchased as a model.

[Simon Frez-Albrecht]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ue4LCtaEgw...0/IMG_1423.JPG

I took that image after a few flattening strokes on my set. The 3/4 had an edge that was raised up just beyond the ground area behind the edge. So I could have ground it off, as Joshua Pierce did, but instead I just gave it a slight bevel like when using the ruler trick. The two smaller chisels only got a few more strokes, and then I called it done. I spent the most time (15 minutes maybe?) on the 1" to get all the way to the edge.

Like Tony Zaffuto, I don't mind the hollow. I have considered adding a hollow to some chisels to make sharpening a bit quicker. Maybe I'm less exacting in my work than some of you gents, but in the end I think that more is made of flat backs than is really necessary. As long as the edge is one plane all the way across, I'm happy.

The chisels I use at work (general carpentry) get flattened and aggressively back-beveled on an 80 grit belt on my 1x30 belt sander, finished with a couple of strokes on a 600 grit diamond and sometimes a few strokes on a strop. This gives me a razor sharp edge that cuts more than well enough in situations that are often full of hidden nails.

[Scott Flamm]

The amount of time it takes to flatten the back of a chisel depends on the condition of the chisel and how picky you are. If you decide that you want to flatten the entire back of the chisel then yes it can take quite a while to get things perfectly flat. If on the other hand you only flatten the first 2-3 inches it will take much less time because there is less steel to remove and any hollows that may exist could be out of that area. And if you are happy with just having the first inch of the back flat then it may only take 10-15 minutes to flatten it. The more of the back that you flatten the longer you can go with out having to do it again though. It is just personal preference, but depending on how you work it could take many years to go through that first inch of steel!

[Tom McMahon]

I know this is blasphemy but what operation does any one preform that require the back of a chisel to be perfectly flat. In many cases it is actually a disadvantage. I know that many believe that a flat back becomes a reference surface, but it actually causes the chisel to dive towards the back and increases the chance of chip out. I some cases a back bevel on a chisel is actually an advantage and a hollow makes sharpening quicker [Japanese chisels].

[Rob Fisher]

I know this is blasphemy but what operation does any one preform that require the back of a chisel to be perfectly flat. In many cases it is actually a disadvantage. I know that many believe that a flat back becomes a reference surface, but it actually causes the chisel to dive towards the back and increases the chance of chip out. I some cases a back bevel on a chisel is actually an advantage and a hollow makes sharpening quicker [Japanese chisels].

I can only think of one instance when I would want a double beveled chisel, and that is carving. Almost any other instance I would prefer a flat back. Paring a tenon or a mortise, any instance in which I am trying to create a flat surface I want a flat back. Maybe that's just me.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I can only think of one instance when I would want a double beveled chisel, and that is carving. Almost any other instance I would prefer a flat back. Paring a tenon or a mortise, any instance in which I am trying to create a flat surface I want a flat back. Maybe that's just me.

I would agree with this statement. However, if more extreme measures than what I mentioned are required, then there is a problem with the chisel or the flattening methods used. I would suggest the OP may want to pick up either Leanord Lee's or Ron Hock's book on sharpening. I would also suggest the OP (and anyone else having flattening issues) to make sure you don't skip steps in grit progression, i.e. for waterstones, 220, 1000, 4000 & 8000 grit, for oilstones, soft arkansas, medium india, translucent arkansas, for Scary Sharp, 220, 400, 600, 1000, 1500 & 2000 grit paper. Stay away from belt sanders or even mechanized grinders such as Worksharp until you know the basics.

[Tom McMahon]

I can only think of one instance when I would want a double beveled chisel, and that is carving. Almost any other instance I would prefer a flat back. Paring a tenon or a mortise, any instance in which I am trying to create a flat surface I want a flat back. Maybe that's just me.

Is not the way a chisel works exactly the same whether you are carving or paring a tenon. If you read Chris Pye or David Charlesworth on back bevels it seems to me the advantages apply to any edge tool. Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating the ruler trick for bench chisels, I'm just saying I see no reason to go crazy trying to flatten more than the area just behind the cutting edge.

[Rob Fisher]

Is not the way a chisel works exactly the same whether you are carving or paring a tenon. If you read Chris Pye or David Charlesworth on back bevels it seems to me the advantages apply to any edge tool. Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating the ruler trick for bench chisels, I'm just saying I see no reason to go crazy trying to flatten more than the area just behind the cutting edge.

I have not read either of the guys you mentioned. And I have relatively little experience compared to them or most others, probably. But in my experience carving is typically making a curved surface and similar to using a bench chisel bevel down. When using a chisel bevel down I rock the chisel on the bevel to control the depth of cut. When using a chisel with the back as a reference I am typically trying to knock down the high spots. Yes it can be a little difficult to preven the chisel from digging in but, with a light cut and a sharp chisel I typically get where I want to be without gouging. If I am paring a tenon that is 3" long I want at least 3" of flat chisel back. Concave is ok, convex is not. If I am paring a rabbet where the entire chisel back is used as a flat reference, I want the entire back flat. Flat means all of the high spots are coplanar and coplanar with the chisel edge. Also the back should be polished at the edge so that it can be sharpened without ending up with a ragged edge. Polished does not equal flat.

[phil harold]

I only flatten the back as far as the jig extends approximatively 1.25 inches
chisel jig.jpg
I dont even make sure that hole area is perfectly flat just as long as it is completely flat/polished by the edge

If you try to flatten the whole backside how do you ensure that you take of even amounts?

[george wilson]

I never have flattened the backs of my 1964(ish) Marples chisels,and they were used in making all the things I have posted here. They always have been a little bit hollow.

[Chris Griggs]

I sort fall in the middle of the road in terms of importance of back flatness. For me flat backs comes down to consistency in sharpening more than anything else. I tend to flatten the width of two fingers up the blade, because well, I like to use two fingers to hold the blade back down to the stone when I wipe off a burr. If the back is really bad than I might flatten less of the back and just hold the blade down to the stone with one finger. If I can consistently get a polish at the edge and consistently remove the burr when holding the blade down with two fingers then the back is flat enough.

I do think their is something to be said for some amount of a flat reference surface behind the cutting edge and I personally would never introduce a back bevel into my chisels - in fact I've ground 1/16" or off of chisels in the past to get rid of back bevels that I couldn't lap out. However, IMHO the concept that the back must be flat in order for the chisel to be "steered" correctly tends to be overemphasized, as the back certainly doesn't completely guide a chisel for you - one needs to learn to do that for themselves. If one doesn't control their chisel whether they are paring or chopping, it will gouge or bruise the work no matter how flat the back is.

Anyway, to the OP, I'll echo what others have said - if you're trying to flatten the entire back I'd say don't bother - just flatten the first X" leading up to the cutting edge - a hollow is no problem.

[Charlie MacGregor]

It's the low spots along the edges I want out. The problem is that this will require a lot removal. Probably more that I'm willing to do! This is the 1/2" chisel and I've finally gotten the first 1/4 or 3/8" flat.
2011-10-05-008.jpg