Roubo Workbench Clamp Decisions

[Adam Cavaliere]

So I am about to begin my journey on building a true workbench. I have been working off of a modified New Yankee chop saw bench for awhile and have realized that I am really missing out by not having proper clamps and the right height to work at, let alone no bench dogs.

I have read Chris Schwarz' book on workbenchs and have finally come around to considering a leg vise. I thought about one of the typical face vise setups, but the more I read about it, the more I realized that the type of wood working I will be doing would benefit from the leg vise instead (with sliding deadman). That being said, I have considered a twin screw vise instead for the front, but I am also thinking of putting one of those on the end of the bench instead. Any thoughts around that decision?

As I have read this wonderful site, I have seen discussions around Benchcrafted and their leg vise. I read the site and was really excited about the vise, that is, until I saw the price!

Is it worth it?! I am trying to justify it after falling in love with the design of it. I used to be able to drop money on woodworking whenever I wanted to justify it, but now I have a little one that commands a certain percentage of that woodworking budget!

That being said, I am also looking at the Veritas Twin Screw Vise for the end of the bench. I believe I am going to get a lot of use out of it when doing glue ups and other tasks that may be suited to that clamp.

Does it make sense to have both of those vises on this workbench anyway? I think it does, since they serve some distinct differences and I am not too interested in installing a tail vise.

All thoughts and recommendations are welcome!

[Jake Elkins]

Adam -

I went through the exact same decision a few months ago. Agonized over every option. I too saw the convenience of a twin screw at the end position, and the immediate utility of a leg vise for a Roubo workbench. After serious consideration of the Benchcrafted wagon vise/ leg vise combination, I went with a Hovarter leg vise and a the Hovarter twin screw. These things are amazing, I can't say enough good things about them. They offer quick release, and the omission of a parallel guide for the leg vise. There is just one caveat: There is some racking when using the end vise (twin screw) to clamp between dogs. This is not a problem when planing, as I use a plane stop. However, the pressure is lighter than I would like when doing things like using a card scraper. Len gave me a (custom? bridge which allows for more clamping distance. Maybe ask about this) modified bridge/wedge system that allows for more travel with the vise, and I can tell that this helps. But, again, the pressure lacks a bit. I think this would be an issue for any workbench at 4" thick using a twin screw, as there is 6 inches or so between the dogs and the screws. I think I might add a parallel bar to address this. But otherwise, I love the utility of having a twin screw at the end position. Amazing clamping pressure. If I had to do it all over again, I am not sure what I would do. A benchcrafted wagon vise would immediately solve my issue with racking, but I wold lose all the benefits of the twin screw. And the Benchcrafted hardware is a little more expensive, but not by much.

I am thinking that in the near future, I might make a bench dedicated to hand planing. I will have this one a couple inches shorter than my current bench (33 vs 35). For this bench, I will have only an end vise, either the Veritas quick release tail vise or the benchcrafted wagon vise. But, like you, I am feeling the reduction in petty cash with the addition of little ones. We shall see. Good luck with the decision

[David Kumm]

Adam, I made my Roubo before benchcrafted was available and used a regular vise screw. It works just fine but every time I use the leg vise I wish I had the benchcrafted. If you go to the effort to make the "perfect " bench you will always wonder what that hardware will be like. I will make another bench someday and use both the tail and leg vise hardware- unless I decide on a wood screw. If you can justify the money go for it. If not you are young and there will always be another bench and another tool. Dave

[David Giles]

Adam, I built a Roubo bench several years ago using the Benchcraft leg and wagon vise. The leg vise is extremely useful, especially to clamp wide items like drawer boxes. I recommend the Benchcraft roller bearings. The wagon vise gets used a lot. The other bench has a traditional tail vise and I could never get it square and flush with the bench. The wagon vise is rarely used for heavy clamping. It pulls duty to lightly hold boards sanding, planing, general positioning. The Lee Valley folks came out with something analogous that looked perfectly acceptable for light duty clamping.

[Thomas L. Miller]

Adam,
I just finished building a Benchcrafted Roubo bench with the Glide leg vise and the Benchcrafted wagon vise. The new bench replaced a 15 year old early effort that was based on a Norm Abram design. I can't say enough about the new bench and the new vises. When Jameel Abraham speaks of "effortless work holding", yea verily, he speaks the truth! Yes the vises are a premium priced products, but since I plan on the bench and vises outlasting me, the Internal Rate of Return (minimizing frustration) calculations work out.
Regards,
Tom

[ian maybury]

I'm headed off down the roubo autoroute too, and while I've bought the timber and hardware I went for a Veritas twin screw vise for the front, and a large Veritas single screw vise at the RH end.

You guys are really doing my head in - leg and wagon vices seem really to have taken off in the past year since my purchases.

Which actually begs another related question. The above combo is typically used with a single row of rectangular dog holes, and a planing stop. While this seems to work well with holdfasts for planing etc (pure hand tool working), it must surely must be limiting compared to a grid of dog holes aligned with face and end vises as above for clamping power tool (e.g. router) work, and certain types of assemblies and frames?

Or not?

ian

[Adam Cavaliere]

Ian,

I definitely am not a handtool only guy. I am just actually starting to get more into hand tools, but plan on this bench functioning as a combo functionality bench for me.

I am planning on having a planing stop, but no rectangular dog holes. I will have at the very least two rows of lengthwise dog holes to allow for using the twin screw vise to do glue ups.

You did bring up a good point and make me think about the leg vise and if I could put some kind of dog / dog hole on the vise itself for clamping things towards dog holes across the width. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

[Paul Cahill]

Adam:
Many options, all with their own merits as you can see from others' replies. I went with the Veritas twin screw on the front to avoid having to bend over so much with the leg vice. I am not sure how much a factor that really is, as I have not used that vice much in the 6 months since I finished the bench. I have a BenchCrafted wagon on the end and love it. There is hardly a weekend I don't use it. Part of this is just because of where it places a board on the bench. An end vice would move the held piece too much to the right for my layout. I addition I really like how I can just reach down and rub the top of the wheel to snug it up. Of course your choice will ultimately depend on the type of working you do. For myself, I wouldn't do it any differently on a redo.

Paul

[Jim Matthews]

Did you read der Schwartz' book on workbenches?
He mentions the Lee Valley surface clamp to approximate the leg vise.

I use two - one on the fixed leg with a crochet to hook the work at the far left end, and another on a sliding "deadman".
Works a treat, and they are easy to reposition.P1030668.jpg

[ian maybury]

The classic criticisms of using dog holes in the moving jaw of a vice to clamp pieces for planing that I've seen Adam are:

(a) If the vice is a little sloppy or wears significantly the there's a risk the jaw will move in the vertical plane (upwards is typical it seems) under the clamping force - thus levering the workpiece up off the bench surface.
(b) As the vice opens a gap is created between the jaw and the vice, which may lead to problems with thin pieces of work being left unsupported in that area.
(c) The gap may cause support problems when clamping short workpieces.
(d) It's more comfortable to plane near the front edge of the bench. If a dog in nearside end of the moving jaw (well off centre) of a typical face vise mounted on the tail is used to clamp workpieces, the resulting eccentric loading may cause racking and premature vise failure.
(e) A quick release vise can't be used to press stuff apart - it needs the standard model vise. So you can't have quick release without sacrificing this. (but then a wagon vise isn't q/r either)

I've no idea how much of an issue they tend to be in practice, but I suspect that a lot depends on how well built the vice is - as in how well it resists racking and unwanted movement due to eccentric loading. Some are not of great quality. The distance from the dog in the moving jaw to the first dog hole in the bench top is significant, in that this must set the length of the shortest piece that can be clamped - but similar issues arise with a wagon vise. Fairly close pitching of the dog holes will likewise minimise the gap when clamping longer pieces.

The wagon vise doesn't have these issues as a result of it's different layout. It on the other hand risks being a bit of a one trick pony I suspect, so hence my question above on it's versatility in handling tasks beyond the clamping of narrow boards that seem to be its speciality.

I've just done a bit of digging on the Benchcrafted website, and have to say that the quality of their stuff is very nice. That said I don't think I'll be ponying up the $359 that's being asked for the wagon vise hardware plus probably another $50 for shipping to Ireland anytime soon - never mind wait weeks for delivery....

ian

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I have read the Schwartz books too, and I tend to disagree with most of the objections he has about traditional tail vises and their integrated dog hole. If you build it carefully, and I don't think it is really that much tougher to do than building a smooth working leg vise and deadman assembly. I don't dislike the Roubo design over all, but I think that the value of being able to work the edges of very wide panels on edge with hand-tools gets overstated--the same way tail vises issues are overstated. I find the tail vise gives me a unique ability to clamp a board flat to the bench and simultaneously both lengthwise and width wise, and with no obstructions at any edge. The tail vise with traditional square dogs and holes allows me three other advantages too: #1 I can make my dogs out of wood (or even leather faced wood) so the workpiece is totally protected from any bruising, cheap and easily replaced from scraps #2 The dogs are sprung at a 2 deg angle towards the work from each side so that I and dog down many hand tool operations with less than 1/4 turn of the vise...as fast as flipping or rotating off a planing stop, but with secure holding, #3 I find I sometimes clamp work (for shaping with a rasp or spokeshave) between the face of the tail vise and the opposing bench face. Just my own preferences...photo of the bench (taken after completion) attached.

One thing I have seen on some other bench builds...the Veritas Twin Screw can be pretty fussy to install and get everything working correctly. The current model now has a metal cover, which might have helped. BTW, Lie-Nielsen also makes a twin screw style vise (and the other styles too). And both LN an Benchcrafted now make a tail vise too. The LN are beefy too and the prices are in-line with the Benchcrafted line.

IMG_2607.jpg

[Steve Friedman]

You did bring up a good point and make me think about the leg vise and if I could put some kind of dog / dog hole on the vise itself for clamping things towards dog holes across the width. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

After reading Chris Schwarz's second workbench book, I e-mailed him to ask the exact same thing. His response was that he didn't see a problem with that, but didn't see a reason for it. I suppose it's possible that the need would never arise if you had a tail vise and all you were doing was cabinetry. But my current bench has a row of dogs holes across the width of my bench and clamp stuff between the dog in the front vise chop and a bench dog. That said, my current vise is a steel front vise, so I asked the question because I had the same concern you did about doing that with a leg vise. Apparently not a problem.

The comments about not using that set-up to plane thin boards with a big gap under a portion make sense. I doubt that I would use it like that for something longer than the width of my bench. Therefore, the vise is never open more than a couple of inches (the distance between the dog holes). Yes, the location of the rails and the vise screw means that you need to be precise about where you pot the dogs holes and, even then, need to be an acrobat to get your fingers in position to be able to push up the bench dogs! That's one of the appealing things about the leg vise for me - nothing to obstruct access to the bench dogs.

Good luck with the build.

Steve

Steve

[Adam Cavaliere]

Matt,

I took a look at the Lie-Nielsen twin screw vise and it seems even more complicated to install than the Veritas one. Anyone have thoughts on that?

Also, if I am going to have a 4 inch thick benchtop, does that mean the threads will be located below the benchtop, or has anyone tried cutting out space in the benchtop for the screws and hardware?

[ian maybury]

Hi Adam. I've not laid mine out in detail yet, but have seen opposing views reported on this question. One suggested that the relatively deep jaws (around 8in) needed on a thick bench top with the Veritas twin screw can lead to issues with vertical racking, and that they did much better with a thin bench top and resulting low jaw. i.e. a piece clamped between the top edges of the deeper jaws may cause the moving jaw to lean backwards. Another was clear they had no problems at all in this situation, and that the roughly 1/8 in relief angle Veritas recommend machined on the moving jaw is too much - that more like 3/64 is more than enough.

In practice it's going to depend a lot on clearances between the screw and the ACME threaded nut that's bolted to the back of the apron/fixed jaw, and the length of that nut. The Lie Nielsen does look like the screw thread on it is supported over a good long distance.

I bought a Veritas twin screw last year for my forthcoming bench. I'm not sure if it's feasible, but I've an enquiry in with Veritas right now to see if the nuts used on the twin screw vice can be bought as a spare part - I'm thinking that if I could add a second one to the rear of the fixed jaw/apron on both screws that it would reduce any possible racking under load. It'd probably be a trade off mind you, in that if my understanding is correct it's whatever slop there is in the stock nuts that permits the vise to clamp slightly tapered parts.

I'm having a much more difficult time deciding what to do at the end. I also bought a large Veritas front vice intending to put a row of 3 errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrasdog holes in the top of the moving jaw, but subsequent reading suggests that racking (both vertical and horizontal) and sag are potentially bigger issues with this type of vise - especially if a wide jaw is fitted. A lot is again going to be down to clearances, and I need to go and carefully inspect the item I have.

That said I'm thinking hard about the alternative possibility of using some sort of wagon or tail vice. e.g. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/pag...46&cat=1,41659 The trouble is that neither this nor the Benchcrafted wagon vise are cheap at €280 to €360 (the latter is an enormous price for what is a basically a screw, nut and couple of guide rails), and while they both seem to work really well for planing I had hoped to have at least 3 rows of dog holes (lined up with those in the moving jaw of the vise) to facilitate assembling laminated curved frames too.....