What is important with DC's (long)

[Tim Palmer]

Hey,

I am sorry about another Dust Collector question, but I am researching which dust collector to get and although most look the same they each have different specs and good points. So what is important. I have about $500.00 to spend. I have wired the spot I am going to put it for 220v. I will have about 25' run of rigid pipe (4" or 6" unknown yet). Going to the usual 4 major tools with one extra for something new. I have been looking at the following canister DCs. PSI's DC2000 1500 cfm with only 9.5" of static pressure, but only 65db. The Jet 1200ck with 1200cfm, 65-80db and a whopping 11.0" of static pressure. and the Grizzly with 1700cfm, 75db, and 10" of static pressure. Are these real numbers or are the companys fudging on them. Also what is important when buying one. I have been to Bill Pentz's site, but I do not have the room or the money for a cyclone. Just want something simple that does a fairly good job. Thanks for any help.

Tim

[Allan Johanson]

Is the $500 supposed to include ducting? Just curious.

If I were in your shoes I'd first buy a quality cartridge respirator with HEPA spec filters to protect my lungs. Best $30 you'll ever spend on your lung health.

Then I'd pick a "2HP" DC unit with a 12" impeller....and....one with a 6" inlet. I don't think the Grizz has that. So that leaves the Jet DC1200 and PSI 2000. BTW, all those big airflow numbers you read are marketing hype. Expect about 700-800cfm with 6" ducting. If you used a 4" main duct, then maybe you'd get 500cfm max. Just a guess....

As for a cannister version or not, this choice is up to you. I'm not fond of bags myself, but I'm also not fond of a cannister or cartridge filter on top of a single stage DC where it's exposed to a major amount of dust. It's begging to be clogged all the time.

Some folks are happy with theirs and some folks curse them when they seem to clog and must be cleaned with that flapper once or twice a day. Feelings seem to be all over the map on this one.

With the proper ducting to the tools (avoid those 4" drops), then these two machines would please most folks.

Cheers,

Allan

[Larry Anderson]

I have the DC2000 with 1 micron bags and it seems to work fine with 4" flex. One hose is to the table saw and the other runs through a chip separator and connects to the jointer, router table or planer as needed. The longest run is about 15' to the saw. The weak link is the table saw as I don't have a collector hose over the blade. While it does have a 12" impeller, I believe the inlet is 5 and not 6" although I have not measured it.

Larry

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Larry,

Can you please double check the inlet size? The web site says it has two 4" ports or one 6" port (when you remove that wye adapter).

I guess it wouldn't be the first time a web site was wrong.

BTW, with the 4" main duct you're using it's actually fine even by industry standards for several tools. It's just that for some machines like the TS where you want two hookups where it won't perform well at all. That's why I like the 6" main duct with a larger DC because it will handle two 4" drops at the same time. Great for a tablesaw or bandsaw that may want two ports.

Cheers,

Allan

[Larry Anderson]

I agree Allan, but the DC came with 50' of free flex and even with the dust flying off the blade it's a great improvement over what I had which is nothing. Maybe someday I'll get ambitious and and run S&D around the garage, although I'm not sure about the availablity of the 5" here. The following is copied from the "more info" at Penn State's web site:
DC2000
HP 2 hp
Max Amps* 9A @220V
Inlets 2@4" or
1@5"
Air Flow 1500 CFM
Wiring 110/220V**
prewired 220
Overall Size 33"x22"x92"h
Collection Bags 1 ea., 40 gal.
1 ea.,60 gal.
Weight 101 pounds
Sound Rating 65 db
Max. Static Pressure 9.5"
Impeller Dia./type 12" Steel

If you check their email specials it can be had for $240 plus shipping.

Larry

[Steven Wilson]

Tim,
The question I would ask you is what are you asking a DC to do for you? Collect chips? Fine dust? Collect dust in a garage? The basement? The answers to these and others questions will determine what size DC system you need.

At its most basic a DC is designed to move material of various sizes from one place to another. Along the path the "pipe" will provide resistance to the flow of that material. To keep the material moving in suspension the DC needs to move the material at a certain velocity and it must be strong enough to overcome the resistance of the pipe.

For any DC to be effective the machine your collecting from needs to be designed with dust collection in mind. Some machines are better designed than others when it comes to DC. This also includes designing for the particle sizes that you want to collect. This parameter has changed greatly in recent years.

A DC can be used to collect particles of various sizes, from large chips (planer/jointer shavings) to fine dust (sander). The design of the filter medium is critical. Twenty or thirty years ago most people were concerned with collecting shavings and the very largest dust particles and the filter medium used and port sizes on machines were designed around this. The system worked well and lots of material was collected. Unfortunately a lot of small dust particles passed through the DC unscathed and ended up in our lungs. Although rare, nasal cancer is a possibility and is related to wood dust exposure. Since you’ve been to Bill Pentz’s site I suggest you revisit it and pay particular attention to the “Doctors Orders” section. Make no mistake, the wood dust you’re exposed to in your shop is a hazard. As Bill points out, our shops might be operating at exposure levels 10000 times industry standards.

For dust filtration you need to filter particles down to .5 micron. A typical bag system, like a Jet DC-650 (and similar), filters to 30 micron. This may have been accepted practice 30 years ago but it isn’t now. For your shop-vac you should consider a HEPA filter and for your personal protection consider a NIOSH approved mask. Remember, it’s the dust that you breath that hurts you. You can have a fantastic DC system but you still need to protect yourself when hand sanding, so use the appropriate filtration method for the work you're doing. In my shop I use an Oneida cyclone, Festool shop-vac , an Airmate helmet, and a 3M respirator. I use to suffer with persistant nasal infections that kept me out of the shop 2 weeks out of every 2 months. Since I upgraded my dust collection systems (all of them) I haven’t had any nasal infections related to this hobby.

Dust ports. A typical American style cabinet saw was designed 40 years ago and hasn’t changed much since. Dust collection was an afterthought with these designs. At best you have a 4” DC port on the back of these saws with no internal provisions to get the chips/dust to the port. The ubiquitous 4” DC port isn’t on your machine because it’s the appropriate size, it’s their because that’s what everyone else uses; can you say “me too” marketing ! If you look at true industrial machinery and European combination machines (basically low-end industrial machines for the one-man shop), you’ll notice a wider variety of port sizes and internal dust collection ducting that gets very close to the cutter head (source).

DC ratings. Almost all of the ads for DC units give you CFM and SP measurements that relate to the machines “free air” performance; no bags , canisters, or pipe attached. So take any numbers given (like 1100CFM) and cut them in half. Felder, Oneida, and the published fan curves for the new Grizzly cyclones are fairly measured and are useful.

DC Design. The size of your DC is the last step not the first. The first step is to determine the CFM requirements of each of your tools. Bill Pentz says 800CFM to every tool. As a single number it’s not bad but for some tools it is overkill. More typically the range is between 400CFM and 1000 CFM. A 12” planer will evacuate fine if you have a true 500CFM to the tool. In this case a 4” port will work fine. Of course a 5” port is much better but we have to remember “me too” marketing. Now if you step up to a 20” planer then 500CFM is insufficient to evacuate material from the planer and you would need a much larger port (say 6”, maybe 7”). Now that we know our CFM requirements at the machine we design our duct work (if any) and figure out the SP of the ductwork. We also determine how many tools we’re going to run simultaneously and then we have a good number as to the total CFM and SP our DC unit needs to meet. If you go with a smaller DC unit you can have it effectively collect dust by keeping the duct work short; and move the unit from machine to machine. If you want to have duct work running down your walls and ceilings, or use a bunch of flex hose, then you’ll need a much strong DC unit.

About your question and your $500 budget. I’ll assume the budget is for a DC unit for your machines. I’m going to assume that you use a shop-vac with a decent filter and attach it to all of your hand held power tools (circular saw, router, biscuit jointer, belt sander, ROS, etc). I’m also going to assume that you’re going to build a downdraft sanding table for any hand sanding. I’m also going to assume that if you aren’t collecting dust at the source then you’re using a NIOSH approved respirator and then leave your shop for 6 hours after your done making dust. A good unit to consider is the Jet DC1200C (or DC1100C). It has a fairly decent cartridge filter (2 micron) and even when discounting its free air CFM it’s still fairly decent. Take off the 6”x4”x4” outlet and run 6” pipe to it and it will work nicely with fairly short duct work. It would also work really well if you move it from machine to machine. A Jet DC650C (canister) could passably work if you have small capacity machines and limit yourself to wheeling it from machine to machine with a short piece of flex; hooking the DC650C to a piping network will greatly reduce the CFM to the machine and you will leave too much dust in the air.

Of course you can always use hand planes and not worry about any of this

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Larry,

I was looking at the chart in the "fan curve" section. There it says the DC2000 has a 6" port. When looking at the specs for the machine itself, as you pointed out the bag version says it has a 5" port, but the cannister filter version says it has a 6" port.

All the more reason for you to go to your DC and bring a tape measure with you.

I hate incorrect web sites.

Cheers,

Allan

[Greg Mann]

Steve,

I think this must be the single best written and articulate post I have read since joining the Creek (or on any other forum, for that matter). For the record, I also put Rob Russel's posts on electricity in this category.

Greg

Tim,
The question I would ask you is what are you asking a DC to do for you? Collect chips? Fine dust? Collect dust in a garage? The basement? The answers to these and others questions will determine what size DC system you need.
At its most basic a DC is designed to move material of various sizes from one place to another. Along the path the "pipe" will provide resistance to the flow of that material. To keep the material moving in suspension the DC needs to move the material at a certain velocity and it must be strong enough to overcome the resistance of the pipe.
For any DC to be effective the machine your collecting from needs to be designed with dust collection in mind. Some machines are better designed than others when it comes to DC. This also includes designing for the particle sizes that you want to collect. This parameter has changed greatly in recent years.
A DC can be used to collect particles of various sizes, from large chips (planer/jointer shavings) to fine dust (sander). The design of the filter medium is critical. Twenty or thirty years ago most people were concerned with collecting shavings and the very largest dust particles and the filter medium used and port sizes on machines were designed around this. The system worked well and lots of material was collected. Unfortunately a lot of small dust particles passed through the DC unscathed and ended up in our lungs. Although rare, nasal cancer is a possibility and is related to wood dust exposure. Since you’ve been to Bill Pentz’s site I suggest you revisit it and pay particular attention to the “Doctors Orders” section. Make no mistake, the wood dust you’re exposed to in your shop is a hazard. As Bill points out, our shops might be operating at exposure levels 10000 times industry standards.
For dust filtration you need to filter particles down to .5 micron. A typical bag system, like a Jet DC-650 (and similar), filters to 30 micron. This may have been accepted practice 30 years ago but it isn’t now. For your shop-vac you should consider a HEPA filter and for your personal protection consider a NIOSH approved mask. Remember, it’s the dust that you breath that hurts you. You can have a fantastic DC system but you still need to protect yourself when hand sanding, so use the appropriate filtration method for the work your doing. In my shop I use an Oneida cyclone, Festool shop-vac , an Airmate helmet, and a 3M respirator. I use to suffer with persistant nasal infections that kept me out of the shop 2 weeks out of every 2 months. Since I upgraded my dust collection systems (all of them) I haven’t had any nasal infections related to this hobby.
Dust ports. A typical American style cabinet saw was designed 40 years ago and hasn’t changed much since. Dust collection was an afterthought with these designs. At best you have a 4” DC port on the back of these saws with now internal provisions to get the chips/dust to the port. The ubiquitous 4” DC port isn’t on your machine because it’s the appropriate size, it’s their because that’s what everyone else uses; can you say “me too” marketing ! If you look at true industrial machinery and European combination machines (basically low-end industrial machines for the one-man shop), you’ll notice a wider variety of port sizes and internal dust collection ducting that gets very close to the cutter head (source).
DC ratings. Almost all of the ads for DC units give you CFM and SP measurements that relate to the machines “free air” performance; no bags , canisters, or pipe attached. So take any numbers given (like 1100CFM) and cut them in half. Felder, Oneida, and the published fan curves for the new Grizzly cyclones are fairly measured and are useful.
DC Design. The size of your DC is the last step not the first. The first step is to determine the CFM requirements of each of your tools. Bill Pentz says 800CFM to every tool. As a single number it’s not bad but for some tools it is overkill. More typically the range is between 400CFM and 1000 CFM. A 12” planer will evacuate fine if you have a true 500CFM to the tool. In this case a 4” port will work fine. Of course a 5” port is much better but we have to remember “me too” marketing. Now if you step up to a 20” planer then 500CFM is insufficient to evacuate material from the planer and you would need a much larger port (say 6”, maybe 7”). Now that we know our CFM requirements at the machine we design our duct work (if any) and figure out the SP of the ductwork. We also determine how many tools we’re going to run simultaneously and then we have a good number as to the total CFM and SP our DC unit needs to meet. If you go with a smaller DC unit you can have it effectively collect dust by keeping the duct work short; and move the unit from machine to machine. If you want to have duct work running down your walls and ceilings, or use a bunch of flex hose, then you’ll need a much strong DC unit.
About your question and your $500 budget. I’ll assume the budget is for a DC unit for your machines. I’m going to assume that you use a shop-vac with a decent filter and attach it to all of your hand held power tools (circular saw, router, biscuit jointer, belt sander, ROS, etc). I’m also going to assume that you’re going to build a downdraft sanding table for any hand sanding. I’m also going to assume that if you aren’t collecting dust at the source then you’re using a NIOSH approved respirator and then leave your shop for 6 hours after your done making dust. A good unit to consider is the Jet DC1200C (or DC1100C). It has a fairly decent cartridge filter (2 micron) and even when discounting its free air CFM it’s still fairly decent. Take off the 6”x4”x4” outlet and run 6” pipe to it and it will work nicely with fairly short duct work. It would also work really well if you move it from machine to machine. A Jet DC650C (canister) could passably work if you have small capacity machines and limit yourself to wheeling it from machine to machine with a short piece of flex; hooking the DC650C to a piping network will greatly reduce the CFM to the machine and you will leave too much dust in the air.
Of course you can always use hand planes and not worry about any of this

[Bob Johnson2]

Tim
I'm in exactly the same boat but am also thinking about saving a few $$ more and going 3hp. I've looked at the same models and here's my personel opinions.

I don't truct the Griz #'s, their amazon ad says 1400 cfm, their web says 1700 as does the manual. Their web site says just under 11" sp while the manual says 14.3. The hieghts also differ... Recently they were also advertising a .3 mic filter bag, which was found to be bogus (again, this is just my opinion). It does however have the most cfm if the 1700 is true (which I guess would be 850 if you use the divide by 2 standard). I dropped them a note on the figures yeaterday and got a response today stating the web is correct. This one does look like it's built like a tank.

The Jet has lower CFM but has the easy to swap plastic bag, and a 7" outlet.

The DC2000 is cheaper and quieter if such a thing exists and a better running motor then the Griz (lower amp).

Check the Delta 50.761 if you have the height for it, better CFM (2100), 2 sets of bags not cannister, 95db, costs a few $ more. The bag capacity may be stated wrong, need to call.

Obviously I haven't decided yet either, let me know how you make out.

[Stephen Dixon]

As to the numbers quoted by Manufacturers, they are mostly true but very misleading. The numbers for airflow are determined with no ducting and in some cases no bags or filters. The numbers for static pressure are determined by measuring suction in a closed fan opening. Neither number is what the normal user would see in use, and might not even be repeatable in a test with an off the shelf DC, Jet earned a fair bit of recognition a few years ago simply because their numbers were "close" to the truth. In terms of full disclosure I have a Jet DC 1200 with Bags.

Steve

[David Miller]

Hi Tim,

Is your head spinning yet? I think mine still is from trying to decide what to do about dust collection. Whatever unit you decide on you need to make sure you are protected from the really fine dust. This can be a cyclone with sub-micron filters or a standard bag DC and a respirator. As long as the whole system works and protects you.

What are your size constraints you mention that prevent the use of a cyclone? Just curious. The standard Pentz cyclone can be modified to move the blower off the top if you don't have the height. But I'm not sure you can build one for the same cost as a PSI or Jet.

Good luck,
Dave

[Tim Palmer]

Thank You

Everyone for your posts. Steven you went above and beyond thank you very much. All the information was great. I still am a little confused about what to do and which DC to get. I did decide to wait a while and continue to save up and research so more units. I am using a good canister mask and a Fein turbo III so I am fairly safe from the dust until I decide what to do. Just wish it was much easier to decide, I want to get as much for my money as possible. For those who asked. I have a cabinet saw, 13" planer, 6" inch jointer, and 14" bandsaw. Some day hope to have the Performex 22-44. I am still trying to find a way to hook my PC333 sander up to my Fein Turbo III shop vac. Have not found the right connections to fit my hose. Again thank you to everyone for helping out. When I decide and buy one I will let everyone know what I did and what I found out to help my decision. Take Care

Tim

[Chuck Radgowski]

Bought the DC2000 web special 239 +55 shipping 294.00 total the 65 DB sold me anything that quiet has to be balanced and besides its running all the time so i wanted it quiet. I hope I made the right choice Its 240 volt so it will share the 30 amp circuit with the TS for awhile The 10 gauge wire I have run should handle it I will let you guys know.

[Allen Bookout]

Chuck, I see that you have had the DC2000 dust collector for a while. How is it working out? I am thinking about buying the DC2000CF (canister model). I am also considering the JET DC1200CK but am leaning toward the Penn State as it is easier to order and find out about. Anyone else have either of these two units that can offer some insite? Thanks! Allen

[James Biddle]

I just ordered the Shop Fox 2HP for $282 from A-I Supply and added the Wynn 1 micron cartridge filter for $118 for an investment of $400. Good bang for the buck, I think.