Hand-stitched rasps

[Bob Lang]

So what else are you guys keeping to yourselves in France?

Bob Lang

[Noel Liogier]

So what else are you guys keeping to yourselves in France?

Bob Lang

Well I guess that if you have already tasted the wine and tested the rasps, we haven't much left to export, except maybe our worldwide recognized skills to go on strike each time the sun is shining or our long-time developped and cherished talent to complain all the time (just as I am doing right now I guess...)

[John Coloccia]

Well I guess that if you have already tasted the wine and tested the rasps, we haven't much left to export, except maybe our worldwide recognized skills to go on strike each time the sun is shining or our long-time developped and cherished talent to complain all the time (just as I am doing right now I guess...)

I'd love a good croque monsieur. Somehow when I order a "grilled cheese and ham sandwich" here, it's just not the same. I also wouldn't mind some good tartar and wine for lunch. You can keep your cheese shops....*PHEEW*

[Jack Curtis]

Well I guess that if you have already tasted the wine and tested the rasps, we haven't much left to export, except maybe our worldwide recognized skills to go on strike each time the sun is shining or our long-time developped and cherished talent to complain all the time (just as I am doing right now I guess...)

There's always your cinema, and clothes, and cheese, and...

Jack

[Chris Friesen]

I have big doubts on acid being able to sharpen a rasp. According to me the acid can only clean the rasp, which makes it feel sharper.

I think the idea of acid "sharpening" is that the acid disolves a layer from the front and back faces of each "tooth", thus leaving a sharper edge where the two faces meet.

[seth lowden]

Well I guess that if you have already tasted the wine and tested the rasps, we haven't much left to export, except maybe our worldwide recognized skills to go on strike each time the sun is shining or our long-time developped and cherished talent to complain all the time (just as I am doing right now I guess...)

Based on that response, I decided to be a customer!

[Bob Smalser]

I'm certainly impressed with the high-end hand work, and surprised one of these rasps can be had for under a hundred dollars. But wonder if some of that expensive effort is misplaced, and if you couldn't be even more competitive with Nicholson, probably your main competitor here? I'm told their quality has recently taken a down turn.

I understand the advantages of hand-stitching by a highly-skilled, highly-paid craftsman. But freehand grinding and polishing the basic shape of the rasp? I suspect getting all those tapered curves symmetrical and fair is an even higher skill than hand-stitching...but one that could be done better by CNC machines, and the skilled shapers retrained as stitchers to keep up with the machines.

Perhaps you also could save overhead on metal files. From 1:29 to 2:00 in the tape the worker appears to be dragging the file backwards over the work piece rather than lifting it slightly on the return stroke. That means almost half the wear and tear on the file is unnecessary, and wasted.

Files and rasps remain bread-and-butter tools in most commercial shops. But like your metal files, are also commodies. We need a good alternative to Nicholson and other toolmakers...but that alternative would sell better if the next step up wasn't over twice the price of a Nicholson.

[Rick Fisher]

I think the highest end hand tools are always sold to a niche market. That market is always bigger than people first think, but a niche just the same.
The market for machine manufactured products is huge, but there will always be people who want something special. They will buy because they see value in a person's labor and almost feel like " a part of " by becoming a customer.

Take away the " extra labor " of a hand stitched rasp or a Japanese chisel and you are left with just a rasp or a chisel. In the end, the niche customer does not buy based on price but heritage and uniqueness.

Logier could save money and lower retails by using CNC machinery, but they could do even better by moving to China or Pakistan ( like another rasp maker) .. but they would lose that niche market, and then price would be their only way to compete.

Finding a cheaper way has become a national disaster in some countries.. If Logier has a market which is willing to pay a premium for heritage and a special product, it would be a shame to follow in the footsteps of so many of our factories who started looking for a cheaper way and ended up on the hooks of Home Depot or Lowe's with a retail price ending in a 7 or a 9..

Cheaper is the goal of the company that has no other medium but cheap..

[Jim Koepke]

I think the highest end hand tools are always sold to a niche market. That market is always bigger than people first think, but a niche just the same.
The market for machine manufactured products is huge, but there will always be people who want something special. They will buy because they see value in a person's labor and almost feel like " a part of " by becoming a customer.

Take away the " extra labor " of a hand stitched rasp or a Japanese chisel and you are left with just a rasp or a chisel. In the end, the niche customer does not buy based on price but heritage and uniqueness.

Having dozens of machine made rasps and just a few hand stitched rasps, my experience tells me different. My Nicholson #50 patterns rasp is nowhere near as good at making a smooth surface as the hand stitched rasps in my accumulation.

I haven't seen machine made rasps in the finer grain ratings. Then if you want a detail tool like a riffler, I have no idea where to look. The big box stores don't carry them. The local small hardware stores don't carry them.

When you get right down to it, wood working is a niche market.

jtk

[Chris Friesen]

I understand the advantages of hand-stitching by a highly-skilled, highly-paid craftsman. But freehand grinding and polishing the basic shape of the rasp? I suspect getting all those tapered curves symmetrical and fair is an even higher skill than hand-stitching...but one that could be done better by CNC machines, and the skilled shapers retrained as stitchers to keep up with the machines.

This. As the production quantity increases at some point it should make sense from an efficiency standpoint to automate parts of preparation of the basic blank. The downside is that it might result in fewer people being employed unless the quantity sold also increases significantly.

[John Coloccia]

So now we're all experts in rasp making? No offense to anyone, and I mean that sincerely, but it seems a bit odd to me that in the Neanderthal Haven we have a craftsman making a world class rasp at a reasonable price, and we're trying to tell him how to make his operation more efficient by using CNC so that we can maybe buy a cheaper rasp.

...and then we will all chime in on the "look at all this cheap crap at Target but I can't make a living selling hand made furniture" thread and nod our head in agreement at how no one appreciates craftsmanship anymore.

We already have mediocre, but usable, rasps in the <$100 range....far better than the current Nicholsons. Why compete with Volkswagen when you're making Jaguars?

edit:
Just to give a concrete example, ANY of these blow away the new Nicholsons
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Fi...56&tgtiid=4151

[Erwin Graween]

Hi.

I understand Bob was talking about placing the value added effort on the right places. And giving his opinion about the sanding job or how to optimising the job done.
But I join Jim, Rick and the others, for all the tradition, knowledge and handmade part of the price included in these excellent tools.
Also like it was said, the quality of the result is far above the one you get with basic machine maid tools, for a fair price (IMHO).

Also 5 points worth a note (my brain dump about this).

**you never now what the market will be. So can't be sure if you'll end up with return on investment in buying expensive machinery.
This is true for Liogier more than for Veritas or Lie Nielsen, but still.
When you sell lifetime tools, once you've filled up primary market what do you do ?
By primary market, I mean people making a living by woodworking, and the passionated 'amateurs' like we are.
And of course among this population those that want to work manually, the neanderthal way.
This is the main reason why LV and others are always bringing new tools on the market, I think (again in my IMHO).
Plus it's way to share some cost of developments, or machinery. I remember once Rob Lee saying one of the planes had served as development for others also.
That's called Risk in fact. And I'm not even talking about the currencies crossrates, that can move and affect the selling in North America.


**Also Liogier does cary a lot of profiles, length, curves and shapes, width, ... ( for rasps and rifflers, ...).
A cnc machine being able to make all these profile, must be hard to find, and probably not worth the investment, considering the amount produced.
Also he is able to make custom profiles if you want it. Which is something more than probably done by hand
And they would have to master CAD, have computers running the machine, etc.
And talking about maintenance, what do you guys prefer ? A good old Grinder ? or a sophisticated computer and electronic ?
Let me guess the answer the neanderthals would give ... Grinder ?


**In the video the grinding and sanding process seems quite fast (my guess about 10 to 15 minutes for both, if not less).
So in the time it takes to stich a rasp (about 1h30') one can probably prepare about 7 to 10, rasp blanks.
So there is no need to produce them faster as this prepares stocks faster that they can be sticthed.
My guess, no need to optimize that part, as in 2 or 3 hours one person can prepare enough blanks for many other to stitch, for days.
Also it let's you the ability to shape whatever the form and size you want.
One thing I discoverd going working by hand is the unbelievable accuracy of the hand of man. Probably one of the best gift of mother nature.

**A point about the cost of labor in France. It's high. If it takes about 2 hours for the making of a rasp. Then add the cost of metal, the buildings, all other bills (electricity), and taxes on benefits....
I'm convinced Lioger does not make high margins.

So in conclusion, I find the prices are good and fair given the work, knowledge and tradition involved in the making.
Plus having a lifetime quality tools is fine with me.

Regards.

[David Keller NC]

So now we're all experts in rasp making? No offense to anyone, and I mean that sincerely, but it seems a bit odd to me that in the Neanderthal Haven we have a craftsman making a world class rasp at a reasonable price, and we're trying to tell him how to make his operation more efficient by using CNC so that we can maybe buy a cheaper rasp.

Indeed. Yet, there is always a certain section of the population (of anything - woodworkers, cooks, driveway mechanics, etc...) that simply want everything cheaper than it already is. These are the folks that were lined up last Thanksgiving evening so that they could be "first" when the store opened at midnight on Friday.

My own view would be extremely unpopular, but nevertheless there are other like-minded individuals out there. I would not want to see a L-N bronze #4 for $125, nor would I want to see Logier's or Auriou's products at a $15 price point - it should hurt a little (or a lot, depending on who you are and your situation) to purchase your tools. If you have less funds, then you learn to do a lot more with the tools that you currently own, and you learn to do without until you can save up for something you need.

This, in my view, was the case for the last several hundred years - good tools were expensive, and craftsmen treated them well. Buying poorly made tool-shaped objects at the BORG is bad in many ways; having no incentive to take care of them is just one of them.

[Erwin Graween]

These are the folks that were lined up last Thanksgiving evening so that they could be "first" when the store opened at midnight on Friday.

David, I particularly like this sample. It's really true.

Regards.

[Jack Curtis]

...This, in my view, was the case for the last several hundred years - good tools were expensive, and craftsmen treated them well. Buying poorly made tool-shaped objects at the BORG is bad in many ways; having no incentive to take care of them is just one of them.

David, I completely agree with your entire message. As an addendum, note that Japanese workers honor their tools one day a year, an official holiday to clean and worship. Not a bad habit.

If you can't afford an expensive tool, whatever that is given your situation, make one or, as David says, make do. There are many ways to perform most woodworking tasks.

Sure, I'd love to be able to purchase piles of $80 rasps and files, but I can't; so I bought one each of three different types just to see how they perform, something to aim for. And, best of all, these companies (LV, LN, Logier) are selling tools made in the west, and are worthy of our support as best we can. They support us.

Jack