Format vs. Martin

[David Kumm]

Andrew, that is the beauty of used. You can get a great Powermatic 160,180,221 for between $1 and 2K. My Porter jointer 16" was $2500 from a dealer so great quality is available for a cheap price. You do have to educate yourself on machines, phase converters etc but well worth the effort. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Ditto what David said, my 40 year old Martin shaper cost me $1k plus another $2k+ to fully rebuild her. There is nothing on the market under $5k that comes close, and frankly probably not even under $10k. My SCM planer, EMA jointer, Timesaver wide belt....all bought used for a fraction of the new cost.

In my opinion the most expensive tools you can buy are inferior quality import tools. I started out buying new stuff and in some ways am still paying for it. The older industrial stuff holds up amazingly well and is hard to kill. I use my equipment to make a living though, so I have a different perspective from someone doing stuff as a hobby.

I have to say I've also enjoyed these threads as you don't see a lot of conversation on these high end machines. It's nice to be able to learn a little something about them.

JeffD

[John Paul Cummings]

I have been reading this thread and feel I need to mention a few things. I was a owner of a cabinet shop a few years ago and had a full range of industrial machines including most of the brands that have been mentioned in this thread. I do not have a single bad thing to say about any of them. I do however feel I need to stick up a little for the Felder Group. A couple of month ago I wanted to buy some machines for my retirement hobby shop and talked to various companies including Felder. After what I am sure Felder perceived as a painful shopping experience life through me a few curve balls and I was not able to buy anything. Due to my history in bigger shops I did however look at everything they have, I did not want to buy something to small that would frustrate me because I was use to the big stuff in the past and I also needed to get an idea of the prices. Felder had a few clear lines, the Hammer, Felder 500, Felder 700, Felder 900 and Format 4. The 700 series is amazing for a serious hobbyist or a business. This is also their best known range of machines as they make the combination machines they are so well known for in this range. My problem is that Felder is Grouped together as one machine line and then compared to various competitors. Comparing a 700 series Felder to a high end industrial machine for 3 times the price is simply not fair. The Felder Group has however stepped up with the Felder 900 and Format 4 range to offer an refined industrial European machine at a reasonable price. They have a few models in the Format 4 range that take an even bigger step forward in features and construction. The Format -4 Kappa 550 sliding table panel saw and the Exact 63 (24") wide planer are some examples of those machines. These machine along with the bigger CNC machines, edging machines and Widebelt sanders they offer can compete with any of the REAL TOP END brands. The problem is that each of those brands also have different lines but are sometimes represented as one not allowing for a clear *differentiation in features. Felder talked very honestly about their service issues in the past when I was looking to buy from them. All machines have technical issues from time to time and to support your customers is often costly for a company and when the wrong management team make bad decisions it will create unhappy customers. In the US Felder had a complete management change about 2 years ago because of that exact reason. Again I like all these machines but each brand requires a little more in depth research to understand what is what and compare fairly. When is was doing my homework I did talk to a few Felder owners, business and hobby users. They only had good things to say about the New Felder in the US. With their very thick range of products they do require some close consideration. Happy Thanksgiving.

[David Kumm]

John makes valid points. Apples to apples. It is really important to do the homework. MM makes the elite and the elite s series that are different. Felder makes all the ranges John mentions and each range is a blend of parts from other series. There is even one 500 series that uses the 700 trunnion rather than the Hammer internals. Scmi makes three different ranges and it is hard to tell them apart. They are all good machines within their price ranges but the buyer needs to know more than he will be told by any single person. It is difficult to know what competes with each other. Does elite and elite s compete with the 500 and 700 or the 700 and 900 respectively. The T110 shaper is a Nova series and the T130 is a Class series. Like studying for an exam. Dave

[Glenn Ancona]

Happy thanksgiving fellow woodworkers. A very busy week here and lots of decisions. We closed on a new piece of property for our shop on Tues.( much higher ground ) should never have to worry about a flood again. Knocked down the old structure on Wed / Thur - yes thanksgiving , I know and Fri. I signed on the Format4 planer! Won't bore you all with all the points that led to it but its a done deal. Ordered it with the 10hp, bed rollers and yes the tersa head. Ultimatly a big part of the decision was the fact after the flood I got a chance to visit Felder in Delaware, due to a third party shipping problem that felder took care of and went above and beyond to insure my satsifaction. I was unaware of the management change but the staff is well trained and the warehouse well stocked. The 975 saw has been operational for several months now and find it a delight to use and a step above the Altendorfh it replaced at the same price point. Yes it seems all manufactures have differnt price points along the way. Its not the Kappa 550 nor a full blown Elmo or martin but the dollar to value aspect is exceptional. Our woodworking shop is part of our family buisness. It is by no way a over tooled spousal avoidence center. I dont have the time or the wish to purchase orlder equipment and tinker to get the results I need. I want to turn it on , set it and run my product and move on to something else. We were running flat out before Tropical storm Irene and with part of our buisness being dumpsters and portable storage, well you can only imagine. I can only hope the weather here in the Northeast stays mild so the new shop is complete before the machine arrives. Thanks for all the coments, PMs and feedback - back to work here -Glenn

[Jeff Duncan]

"It is by no way a over tooled spousal avoidance center".
-Glenn

I like it, that's got to be the line of the week!

Congrats on your new purchase.....and shop!

JeffD

[Greg Portland]

Glenn, please update us with impressions and pictures once it arrives (and assuming you have time!). Thanks!

[Joe Jensen]

It is by no way a over tooled spousal avoidence center. -Glenn

Hey, I resemble that

[Glenn Ancona]

Joe,
Nice to read your post about the factory tour on the Felder owners group site - put me at ease with purchase and got me planing a trip to Insbrook for my next ski trip and a tour. Enjoyed the article.