Format vs. Martin

[Rick Fisher]

Its $200 approx.. per knife.. Yeah.. $800 for a set.. (you may wanna shop around a bit on that one )

Larry, its funny.. when you have a decent Euro Planer or Jointer, matched to a cheaper Asian Planer or Jointer.. The European machine really makes its Asian partner look crappy..

My General International planer doesn't deal with much well.. its finicky about what gets planed.. Planing multiples of small stock is painful, and unless the bed is freshly waxed and polished, which it never is.. wood sticks or stops and starts during the planing process, leaving cutter-head marks in the surface.. Okay, Rant-off .. lol

I get my knives from a company in British Columbia called " Tersa Knife Inc " .. (clever name) .. A 630mm M-42 Knife is $26.00 or about $104.00 a set ..

What is it about Rough lumber that you don't like putting it through your beastly planer ?

[Larry Edgerton]

Dang Rick! You are an early riser!

I would like to have two planers running in opposite directions so I could drag the rough stock through the inferior planer first to get all the dirt the neanderthals at the mill get in the rough stock first, then finish with the Tersa head. The only bad point of the Tersa head is the cost of knives if you run into some dirty stock. I had one of those old giant PMs, but the head broke loose while planing Jatoba and screwed it all up. Wish I had kept it and patched it up for this purpose. I often run two or three machines at one time when I am roughing stock. I have a powerfeed on the jointer and the tablesaw, and the planer of course. I'm not sure I could master 4 at one time.....?????

$200 a knife is about the same as Global, and the M42 price is exactly the same.

[Glenn Ancona]

Going with the Felder !!The used martin ended up having rubber rollers and no table bed rollers on the bottom -these being key for the rough timbers as well as my wet woods. Felder is going to spec it as I want. Even came back offering additional discounts. The last item to be decided is the head. They are claiming a tighter tolerence with their blade system and the same db. as the tersa and finish. The New planer will hopefully arrive in febuary a month after the new shop is complete. Will post a report - glenn

[Stephen Cherry]

Going with the Felder !!

If you get down to Deleware, don't fortet to get a burger at Charcoal pit on Concord pike, plus a shake.

http://charcoalpit.net/

[Rick Fisher]

Glen, I think the Felder is a great choice, but would strongly consider the Tersa head.. Its so simple to buy blades.. You can shop around and buy them from 100 different sites.. Resale is probably better with Tersa as well. If nothing else, check the cost of the blades against the prices Larry is paying, and check what qualities of steel are available.

The blades Larry and I use in Tersa, the M42 are about $104 for a set of 4 for your machine. In HSS they would be around $94.00

One question on the Felder cutterblock is can the knife be adjusted ? I have no idea.. A tersa slides into the head, you can slide it right out the other side if you wish.. I have a 4 knife tersa head, if I chip new knives with say a staple when the knives are new, I simply loosen a couple of blades and slide them over 1mm .. The nick is gone..

[Simon Dupay]

Have you looked at a Northfield? Their way better built then eruo planers (not to say their bad planers) and around the same price range.

[Larry Edgerton]

I agree with Rick on the ability to shop blades wherever you choose. Also the cost of Tersas has dropped considerably since I bought my machine and there are now so many more of these heads out there.

To be clear, there is absolutely no adjustment with a tersa. To change a knife on my planer I tap four jibs with a block of wood and a hammer, slide out the old knife, slide in the new. When you turn the machine on it resets the knives. Simple.

I question Felders claim that it is more accurate. Mine is perfect every time. I check it, less now than when it was new, but every time it is exactly what I have on the indicator, with zero error. Its hard to be more accurate than perfect.

Larry

[Jeff Duncan]

OK after reading Rick and Larry's posts about Euro vs Asian jointers and planers, I figure I'll throw out my experience on the subject. Several years ago I purchased a brandy spanking new Bridgewood 20" planer for just shy of $4k. It had the insert cutter head, 5 hp Baldor motor, variable speed etc etc....I figured I'd retire with that planer. It produced a very nice cut and was quiet as promised, but I found I really couldn't take a big bite in hardwoods without it bogging down. If I tried to take say a 16th off on a close to full width pass in maple it couldn't do it. I tripped the internal breaker on several occasions and so was a bit disappointed with it's performance. Less than a year passed and a local cabinet maker retired. I went to look at a shaper, which I bought, and he offered me a great price on his SCMI 20" planer. Now I didn't need it, but something in my head kept saying to get it. So I called him several days later and bought the planer. The difference in performance was night and day. It can plane maple like butter and not bog in the least. It has a 4 knife cutter head which was at least an inch bigger in diameter than the Bridgewood. It was so much heavier in every regard that it's not really a fair comparison.

My favorite part of the machine though is the on board knife grinder. Now I'm sure it's not nearly as fast as replacing Tersa knives, but I can do a quick pass on all 4 knives in well under 10 minutes. A full re-set, grind, and table wax less than 1/2 hour. And b/c I only grind just enough to refresh the edges, the same set of HSS knives will likely last me many years to come. I like the idea of the Tersa type systems, except for having to buy new knives all the time. I guess it comes down to whether you have enough production to compensate for the cost of the knives?

As for jointers, I have an older Italian model that I have to be careful with. It lost it's depth of cut scale long ago, and if I'm not paying attention it'll cut a 1/4" in a pass without a problem!

Anyway that's my experience for whatever it's worth. I think the Felder will be a very nice machine and I'd imagine you'll get a lot of use out of it over the years.

good luck,
JeffD

[Greg Portland]

Guys - The search is still on. Here are the numbers, New Felder 63 with straight 4 blade head, full digital with memory and variable speed delivered at 18,900. Found a 06 Martin with same 4 head with two speed good condition - no warranty 18,000 picked up 4hrs with truck. The SCM 630 I was quoted at 22,000. A friend waited months for parts for his SCM last year , nearly shut him down for a bit. Here is what we do - 1 1/2 man shop producing slab furniture and custom cabin funiture. Last stair project was 3 x 12 x 14 open stair stringers with 3 x 14 treads. These pieces tilt / move my current delta if I dont hold onto the wood till its centeredin the macine. The digital precision of both so we can jump between projects are are huge factor also the fact that service / dealer of both is within 4hrs if there is a major problem. Both indicate that short stock i.e my block treads and short bench and table pieces will not be a problem. Im leaning back to felder this morning as mentioned yesterday when I visited them in Delaware very impressed with the techs and the saw so far. Altendorfh didnt even contact me for several days about replacing my saw after the flood and actually glad they didnt- would not have made the trip to delaware. The 975 saw is everybit as well and my dado set up is so much easier to set up than the mighty Altendorfh If I were running slabs all day everyday a new Martin or SCM would be a consideration. but thats another 5k-- the 18k is already a stretch!! As mentioned I think brand loyalty is a major factor with owners at this level. Still have not heard from anyone disapointed with the exact 63 finish.The ability to add on the 4 ft. scissor extention table at a later time - a huge plus. Felder will even get me to shop of owner to test / sample boards to confirm -we will see. Glenn

Hi Glenn. At this price point I would be more concerned about dealer service & how quickly a problem can be corrected. All the machines are going to cut wood when they're working. How quickly can things get fixed when there is a problem? It sounds like you've got a good relationship with Felder/Format; IMO you made the right business decision (regardless of the merits of the different machines).

[Glenn Ancona]

With the last call to felder / format i was put thru to the ceo to answer all questions and reservations i had.We chatted for 15 - 20 minutes regarding my add on's and removals on the machines build. The response regarding finish and settings were what i needed to hear. I will be testing and dialing in the machine fully adjusted and trained by the techs that delivered the new slider earlier this year. By the way that costs $ 750 with martin. The fact that I am also a returning customer, they discounted the machine further. I feel confident that their machine will be as good as their customer service. If not they are the nearest of the importers / dealers I was considering. Question to those who have responded - how often are you changing your blades in footage run or weeks or months ?maybe i will pick up two extra sets of blades when i go. Glenn

[Rick Fisher]

Hey Glen.. Great choice..

I am just a hobby woodworker and change my blades about every 4 months.. Much of it seems to depend on the wood I am cutting.. I went though a bunch of maple last summer and wore out the blades in about 6 weeks. I change them too early, no question, my saw blade guy tells me that I sharpen sooner than most as well..

The M-42 knives last longer than the cheaper Tersa knives..
I have a set of new blades in a drawer, when I install the first edges of the new blades, I will order another set and store them in the same spot..

The Tersa system is pretty cool. you need a mallet and a wedge to change all the cutters.. (once a bandaid was involved) .. Knock the gib down and slide the knife out.. flip it over and slide it back in.. As Larry said, when all the knives are flipped, you turn the machine on and it sets the knife.. Kinda spooky the first time .. lol

One thing with my jointer is that it has an electromagnetic brake installed in the motor. When the power is off, you cannot move the cutterhead. So you have to hit a knob that allows you to turn the power on, but not engage the motor, then hit the on switch .. Its a bit creepy but without the power on, you cant roll the cutterhead by hand..

[Paul Grothouse]

My 2 cents, and I am probably the only one on this board who has owned both.

Purchasing a Format 4 is one of the worst business decisions I ever made. It is a boat anchor compared to the Martin. After the sale service also, well frankly SUCKS. We had tech service from Felder in and they make every problem worse, on mulitple visits.

Run, Run, Run away from Felder.

Martin can be a little tough to deal with up front, they are very German, but the product is incomparable. You are in NY, I highly recommend you work through their dealer Simatech, I will list his contact information. He delivered and rigged my saw, which is very large, for no extra charge. He is awesome, here is his info.

Ed Papa
Simantech Inc
1-800-489-6694
http://www.simantechinc.com
simantec@optonline.net

[Rick Fisher]

I have to assume that Paul's assessment of Felder is based on personal experience gone awry.. It has not been the opinion of many owners.

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul,You are not the only Martin - Felder owner. Read my post #25. There is no comparison between the two. I gave Glen some things he should look at that would be just a few reasons why.Three of my Martins were commissioned in shop by Stefan Benkart, the jointer and planer arrived in perfect working order and needed no commissioning. They are still in perfect calibration after 10 years. I never heard of the 800 dollar fee for this. I spent 3 1/2 days adjusting the Felder after it arrived. I think he is getting all his info about Martin from the Felder sales people. I had to laugh when they told him the Esta type knives will work as well as Tersa. I had those in a SCM planer...

I tried to sell the Profil shaper after we got it with no luck and finally came up with a few things in the shop it worked for. Felder did make good efforts to correct everything wrong with mine so I think their service effort is better than some importers. They just don't have that much to work with.

For quality of Euro standard woodworking machines I would rank Martin high followed heavy Italian - SCM , Griggio and SAC. Felder and MiniMax would be in the next category after these and a good choice for home woodworkers. IMHO. Felder is trying to break into the pro machines with the Format line and may succeed but they have a ways to go.

Joe

[Brad Shipton]

Joe, it is interesting to see you rank Griggio and SAC above the Felder. Have you had a chance to view the new lower end lines Martin is offering? I probably can never afford a real Martin like I want, so I was wondering if they made many improvements to the import versions.

Brad