Tenoner?

[Dave Cav]

I'm considering getting a used 3 head Powermatic 2A tenoner. The price is OK, but I would also have to have it shipped from the east coast. I will also have to rebuild it, but that's really no big deal. The biggest problem would be finding a spot for it in the already crowded shop. Last year I shoehorned an Acme 48" belt sander and a Woodmaster 24" drum sander into the last remaining spaces, and I would have to do a major reorganization and maybe get rid of one of my shapers to fit the tenoner in. I really don't need two shapers, other than it's handy to keep one set up with a feeder, and one not. Other than an old Milbury, the PM is about the smallest single end tenoner out there. So the big question is, is it worth the effort? I run a semi pro furniture shop and all my web frames and a lot of the other joinery is M&T. I currently cut tenons on the shaper using a sled. I've cut lots of tenons on the table saw, but I really don't like doing it.

Thanks for any opinions or recommendations.

[John Fabre]

Easy, sell me the Woodmaster sander.

[Frank Drew]

Dave,

I think tenoners are most suited to production situations involving a number of multiples, like a bunch of doors or tables or whatever the same size. You didn't specify the kinds of work you do, but for one-offs or similar you'd probably find the setup of the tenoner too time consuming to be worth the effort (of course, if you're familiar with the machines I'm sure you already know that.)

I've used the Powermatic or a similar single end tenoner and it did great work once set up, but that was at a production millwork, years ago. Tenoned, coped and cut to length in one pass -- slick.

There was a thread on tenoners here a few weeks ago, with some nice photos and some interesting discussion.

[Dave Cav]

Easy, sell me the Woodmaster sander.

Nice try. I'm liking my woodmaster and customer support is great.

[johnny means]

+1 on the production thing. That's a lot of machine and real estate for one very specific task. I could probably cut the 16 tenons for a stretchered table in the time it would take to set that thing up for the job. Makes a lot of sense for fifty tables, maybe not so much for one. Sounds to me like you could find a use for it. I think the question is,"Would it be profitable?". Remember to figure in the cost of your reorganization, as well as value lost by giving up other useful machines. I bet it would take a lot of slightly faster tenons to off set the efficiency of a double shaper set up. How often does the shaper get used as opposed to the tenoners potential use? Also, sounds to me like you might want to look into Lean Manufacturing. There's a lot to be said for the efficiency, therefore profitability of minimalism.

[Carroll Courtney]

I took a tour of a mill shop about 2wks ago and he had several tenons and like your does it all in one pass. In less than a minute he cut both tenons on a rail.I say that even at the semi level furniture/cabinet maker it will add accuracy,speed,overall safety and comfort.Get it,sell a shaper,make room,these machines just don't come up for sale that often.Post pics you luck dog----Carroll

[Peter Quinn]

I've never used one but I'm told the single end tenoner is a pain to set up for short runs. Its really more for production runs given the set up time and tooling costs. My thinking is unless you really need the coping feature and large capacity of a dedicated tenoner it might be better to upgrade one of the shapers to a slider with the appropriate tenon hood and tooling than to add a dedicated machine to a crowded shop. You can do lots of work work with a good shaper, but the tenoner adds speed to mass production of only a single process and may actually slow you down on custom work. I know lots of door and window shops use them, not sure how many small shop furniture makers find them useful?

[ian maybury]

No experience, but a friend building mostly kitchens commercially built what I think was a double router headed router set up to do that sort of work in one pass.

I think a big part of what made his set up useful and feasible was the fairly repetitive nature of the work - it gave the ability to standardise on stock dimensions for door frames and the like, which in turn meant he didn't need to set up every time.

Another element in his set up was that they bought four sided planer which produced this frame material very quickly, again to preset standardised dimensions. He ran off a couple of large raised panel cabinet doors for a drying cupboard for me in about an hour - without seeming to need to touch a set up anywhere...

ian

[Stephen Cherry]

I would also consider a sliding table shaper. Something like a scmi t130, with the sliding table in the front, or the side tenoning table. These machines pop up on ebay, and at other auctions. I've got a scmi t110 with a sliding table that I patched together, plus some big disc cutters, and it does an OK job at tenons in no time flat. I've got the spacers between the discs to match the mortising tools. THe downside is that you need to have a piece of wood behind the workpiece to prevent tearout and to locate a mark for the tenon shoulder.

Also, it seems to me that the tenon tools on one spindle would save an enourmous time for calibration.

[David Kumm]

Stephen is correct that a sliding table shaper can be set up pretty quickly, although the t130 is a big machine. A smaller slider will work as well. I have several sliding shapers but seldom use them any more for tenoning. I make the shoulder cuts with a hammond trim saw and cut the tenons on my Y20 bandsaw. They are the fastest and easiest to set up by far for my short run stuff absent a dedicated cutter on a spindle. Dave

[Dave Cav]

Thanks for all the input. I'm currently cutting my tenons on a Delta HD shaper using a pair of custom Freeborn cutters and a coping sled. It works fine, although not as well as a larger insert head with nickers would. The problem is the tenon length is limited to about 2 1/2", which limits the size of the furniture and other pieces I build or want to build. For modest doors and web frames it's fine. I have seen the much larger setups others use with sliding table shapers and bigger heads, but bigger sliding table shaper with a 5 or 7.5 HP motor is not in my future; I don't have the power and space for one, for one thing. I'm still considering the tenoner I have been looking, but I may pass on it due to it's location and the fact that it's being stored outdoors. I may also increase my scope to include an older Milbury, although they are more fussy to set up than the Powermatic.

[Rick Lizek]

Horizontal slot mortised is the way to go. Loose tenons are very fast, strong and the most versatile for custom and production work. Tenoners are like dinosaurs.

[Frank Drew]

Rick, I like horizontal slot mortisers a lot, and think they're absolutely the way to go for most cabinet and furniture applications. Sometimes, though, I want an integral tenon; not having a tenoner in my own shop, I cut tenons on my sliding table saw with a dado set. [One shortcoming to slot mortises, at least in my experience, was that the cutters have a tendency to chatter when cutting deep mortises (say, over three inches), and that might affect the accuracy of the mortise (hard to tell). If I'm doing something like a wedged through tenon on a big door, which I consider the gold standard in door framing, I'd come in from both sides to avoid that.

[Jeff Duncan]

I have a similar view as Peter and Rick posted above, I have not used one myself, but spoke with a very knowledgeable woodworker who now sells machinery out of the mid-west. You may know of him as he frequents that old machine forum Anyway he steered me away from the Powermatic for the reasons listed here already. For short runs it is a difficult machine to get tuned in correctly. I ended up going the slot mortiser route, but my tenon work is much more geared towards interior doors and cabinet frames. You may want to touch base with him before you purchase anything, I found him to be pretty helpful.

good luck,
JeffD

[Dave Cav]

Thanks again for the additonal input. My furniture constructon is mostly centered around Mission style furniture, and I'm afraid loose tenons cut with a slot mortiser won't work for what I'm doing, which often involves through tenons. And I like dinosaurs. My shop is full of them, and I'm far from alone. I'll stick with my 40+ year old Newman hollow chisel mortiser, and hopefully I'll have a tenoner to go with it before too long. I'm trying to get a deal going on a Millbury right now.