Taliking with Incra Rep about the INCRA Router Fence & Table Combo#3

[Mike Kelsey]

As I said in another post, I discovered the Incra dovetail system & became intrigued because of the precision & build (I have the 5000 sled & love it), and was impressed by the videos. The fact that I can do more than just dovetails, the repeatability, being able to make multiple cuts at once ( except for the pins) and of course the opinions here on Sawcreek, is leading me to consider this system. I have our kitchen cabinets to do, as well as two friends who tell me they would "love" it if I would consider doing some for them (translation, I think, as "sucker").

Anyway I have read quite a few of the past posts regarding the positioner systems with varied opinions, so I decided to call Incra to get their take on some of the criticisms. The first thing I asked about was: was the intend of these systems to be used as drawer dovetails for kitchens & the answer was most definitely yes, up to the 16" limit of the templates. I asked about the right angle fence, whether it was capable of handling 16" boards in a vertical position & was told for most standard cabinet depths it would do fine without any auxiliary support. I asked how many boards he had cut at once - he said 12 - as a "block" - it was actually more stable. He said typically 4 to 5 boards is usually the most one would cut at once. (We didn't discuss vertical lengths though). I asked about the 25" vs the 17" extender. He felt the 25" was created frankly for those who didn't have a TS set up for dadoing the middle of a larger board.

He felt the speed of the system had to do with the accuracy of repeatability. I asked about their Wonderfence dust system. For dovetailing, because of the distance from the fence, it wasn't very effective but for other router work it worked fine.

So I'd like to know if there are Incra dovetail system users, who have used it for cabinetry drawers, as opposed to just small boxes & how effectively efficient you feel the system & if the 25" extension might be useful in ways other than just a cleaner cut than a TS.

[Carl Beckett]

Hi Mike,

I have the Incra fence on my router table. Some thoughts:

For the router table, I wouldnt want a longer extension. The bulk of the work can be done with the fence within a few inches of the cutter, and the added depth of the extension would get in the way when the fence was left on (couldnt push it up against the wall, extends out over other work surfaces, etc). This is a function of what space you have.

I would consider the incra system too 'slow' for a tablesaw fence. But I dont make super precision cuts on my table saw (if I want finger joints I go to the router table).

Its not clear to me how much repeat-ability will increase speed. Indexing yes. But once indexed to position and the cut is made, I rarely go back and chase over the same cut line (only if a mess up of some type). So not sure the gain here. Ganging/stacking cuts is the way to go - you have to be sure they are all square and clamped together well, etc - because any slippage will mean lack of consistency between pieces

I will assume for cabinets you are doing half blind dove tails. One of the dedicated dovetail fixtures seems like the most efficient way (to me) - you might get one off CL and be money ahead.

Will be curious to learn others opinions on this.

[Mark Engel]

I also have the Incra system on my router table with the Wonder Fence. It is the 25" positioner and that length has rarely been used/needed. If I were to buy the system today for a router table I would get the 17" positioner.

The wonder fence dust collection works really well when the fence surrounds the bit. Obviously not as well when the fence is back.

I haven't used the fence for dovetails, but have made a bunch of box joints. The accuracy and repeatability of the fence is fantastic. The indexing strips make it very easy to set the fence for all of the mating box joint cuts. Where it saves me time is in re-setting the fence to the next position. No measuring is required, just slide the fence the next index mark and make the cut(s). Gang cutting saves a lot of time, although I have never tried it with more than four boards.

[ian maybury]

Nice to hear some positive comment. I'm just in the middle of building up an Incra router table (the big 27x43in offset one) with the wonder fence/joinery system on their support frame. I've a TS-LS which is about to go on my Hammer K3 panel saw too.

The ability to return to a prior setting was a key issue for me. I've no experience of it yet, but did a lot of digging and actually failed to come up with negative user comment - and their service was remarkable. Excellent documentation too. Right up there with Lee Valley.

It's probably not the sort of stuff you'd put in a heavy use and unsympathetic environment, but other than that my only slight grouch is that the metric versions came out shortly after I bought inch models...

ian

[Mark Mueller]

Just to clarify a couple of items related to Mike's original post, box joints and dovetails can be done well beyond the 16" length of the templates by repositioning the template and then continuing the series of cuts. Naturally, cutting tails into 24" x 40" chest sides with an LS25 will take some planning and some practice...a conventional dovetail jig will have an advantage for really large pieces. Personally, I think frame and panel construction for larger items is techincally a better choice than dovetailing two really wide panels of solid lumber.

For boxes and drawer parts, as Carl mentioned, the efficiency comes less from repeatability and more from the fact that it's possible to gang cut a stack of lumber at once, although repeatability does become a greater asset in some situations. For everyday routing work, an Incra system's speed comes from the fact that every fence position is repeatable and micro adjustable (the fence is mechanically positioned instead of visually positioned). Being able to quickly zero a scale relative to a stright bit also speeds up cuttng rabbets and grooves at different dimensions.

For dust collection, enclosing the router in a downdraft cabinet is the way to go for situations where the fence (and dust collection) are moved away from the router bit. Having used a half-dozen different downdraft setups over the years, I'd venture that a good downdraft system collects 95 - 98% of debris during joinery operations, providing there's good airflow past the bit. I drew up a set of plans for a quick-building, very effective downdraft cab, and the plans can be downloaded here: http://incra.com/info/pivot_door_cabinet.pdf


Mark Mueller
Field Operations Manager

Taylor Design Group, Inc
1605 Crescent Circle, #400
Carrollton, TX 75006

Phone: 888.804.6272, ext. 4
1 317 287 0340 (international)
E-mail: mark@incra.com

[keith micinski]

I bought a used 25 inch and I would love it if mine were only 17 or maybe even a little less then that. I like the system but I went into it thinking that I was going to love it but more importantly I really wanted to love it. after setting it up and using it though I think it falls short of me loving it. There are two big reasons why. When you adjust the fence to slide you have to to take the wrench and stick it in a blind hole. To make the hole not blind you then have to loosen two plastic screw by hand and slide tabs over so you can see down I the hole. At this point I just leave my plastic pieces slid over sofas not to hassle with it. This seems like an absurdly engineered way to adjust the fences when so much thought went into this product. A tool less way from the top of the fence should have been figured out from the beginning and barring that should have been modified a while ago. My next complaint involves squaring the fence to your router table. I still can't believe that to do this you have to listen the adjustment screws that slide the fence plus one more and then you need to shim the top and bottom of each side accordingly. Easily the laziest most poorly engineered part of any product I have ever used. Even if you do get it shimmed right every time you loosen to slide the fence things change a little. My fence even Unshimmed was "good enough" but I didn't by this system because I wanted good enough, I wanted perfect. My last complaint is with the 90 degree sled. It is almost there but not quite. The screw and rail that slide in are not big enough or supportive enough to really work well you have to be really careful and deliberate with your sled other wise you will get inaccurate results. It is also very finnicky on the adjustments needed to make it slide true with out binding or lifting off the rail. Like I said overall I like the system as a router fence but I don't love it like I wanted to. Ad a dovetailed I have never used anything else but from what I have watched and read a dovetail jig is definitely the way to go and ai will probably buy one if I have a job that requires dovetailing in the future.

[Aleks Hunter]

I Have a 32" incra TS/LS with the wonder fence.

You're absolutely right the wonder fence is ineffective worthless when cutting the pins. The only chip collection possible is from the underside of the board against the tabletop and on the table top in front of the pin slots as they are routed. Since it is from a dovetail slot the chips will spit out the end of the slot. To collect these chips you will need to devise a tabletop hood.

On the bright side the accuracy is everything they claim, but the whole rig takes some getting used to. For example to use as a table saw fence you have to align the fence so it is true at one end of its movement when it is not locked down. There are hooks at the near and far end of the fence, and the near one has a thumbscrew for locking the fence in position.

All in all though I have a Leigh D24 that I absolutely prefer for cutting dovetails. It is faster than the Incra, especially for batches of drawers. I keep it set up on a dedicated bench, and whenever I need to cut dovetails, I just cut them all at once, no muss no fuss. By muss and fuss I mean the hand cutting you have to do to make the tails fit the pins on the Incra cut through dovetails. The Leigh approach is set it up, cut them and clamp them together, sand the proud edges down and done.Just my $.02

[Mark Engel]

Just to clarify a couple of items related to Mike's original post, box joints and dovetails can be done well beyond the 16" length of the templates by repositioning the template and then continuing the series of cuts. Naturally, cutting tails into 24" x 40" chest sides with an LS25 will take some planning and some practice...a conventional dovetail jig will have an advantage for really large pieces. Personally, I think frame and panel construction for larger items is techincally a better choice than dovetailing two really wide panels of solid lumber.

For boxes and drawer parts, as Carl mentioned, the efficiency comes less from repeatability and more from the fact that it's possible to gang cut a stack of lumber at once, although repeatability does become a greater asset in some situations. For everyday routing work, an Incra system's speed comes from the fact that every fence position is repeatable and micro adjustable (the fence is mechanically positioned instead of visually positioned). Being able to quickly zero a scale relative to a stright bit also speeds up cuttng rabbets and grooves at different dimensions.

For dust collection, enclosing the router in a downdraft cabinet is the way to go for situations where the fence (and dust collection) are moved away from the router bit. Having used a half-dozen different downdraft setups over the years, I'd venture that a good downdraft system collects 95 - 98% of debris during joinery operations, providing there's good airflow past the bit. I drew up a set of plans for a quick-building, very effective downdraft cab, and the plans can be downloaded here: http://incra.com/info/pivot_door_cabinet.pdf


Mark Mueller
Field Operations Manager

Taylor Design Group, Inc
1605 Crescent Circle, #400
Carrollton, TX 75006

Phone: 888.804.6272, ext. 4
1 317 287 0340 (international)
E-mail: mark@incra.com

Great plans, Mark. Thanks for sharing them here.

[Mike Kelsey]

Trying to draw some conclusion, I guess I'd have to say it is a mixed bag regarding the Incra Router Positioner Table Combos.
I was trying to approach this set up from the idea of occasional multiple reproductive work, i.e. kitchen cabinet drawer work & the like, as well of the added benefit of a nice router table & precision fence - sort of a "more bang for the buck approach". I plan on doing hand made dovetail work for most non-reproductive construction.
I have glanced at the Leigh dr4 system & just for dovetailing with dust control that may be a better way to go but the cost is similar.

Comments also on other sites pop up with some people absolutely loving the system. I guess where I remain confused is that Incra seems to present this, if I am correct in my assumption - (Mark?) - as a dovetail system. Would it be better to see the positioner system as a great router fence system with an adequate dovetail approach?

[keith micinski]

"Would it be better to see the positioner system as a great router fence system with an adequate dovetail approach?"

This is exactly how I see mine and am perfectly happy with it being that but I only paid about half price for mine because I bought it used. If I had paid full price I might not feel as happy about it.

[Mark Mueller]

"Would it be better to see the positioner system as a great router fence system with an adequate dovetail approach?"

I always encourage customers to think in general terms, because in most shops, 70-80% of the routing work isn't dovetails. In my shop, a lot of the value in an Incra system is that I benefit from the precision almost every day, not just for the dovetails in a project. Incra systems have never been joinery jigs, although joinery is what often gets people interested...they're very accurate fence systems that have a broad range of joinery capability as a result of their fence positioning accuracy.

Using a dovetail jig vs. making joints on a router table is a very "Ford-Chevy" question...there's more than one right answer, and everyone is guaranteed to have a preference.

If your emphasis is on through dovetails, something like a Leigh system will likely be more straightforward and will offer more latitude in stock thickness (Incra systems have no limitations on stock thickness on half-blind, corner post, double, or sliding dovetails).

On the other hand, an Incra LS system from the beginning includes 10 box joint patterns and 29 dovetail patterns, using bits ranging from 1/8" to 3/4", and lumber thickness from 1/8" up to whatever you like (except for through dovetails)...quite a bit of versatility without additional investment beyond router bits, plus the possibility of long-grain sliding dovetails, corner post dovetails, and other decorative joints. And because it's a mechanically positioned router fence, there's 0.002" accuracy and repeatability for basic joints like fitting trapped bottom panels into grooves in newly-dovetailed drawer parts. I'm a little biased, as you might guess, but these are all features that have been very useful in my own shop over the years.

In terms of Incra systems being only an "adequate dovetail approach": Everyone has different needs and expectations, but I personally have yet to have a project require a dovetail or box joint that I couldn't do pretty easily with my Incra systems, and I've used mine to build a reasonable number of drawers. I'm not sure what people consider "fast"...I'm an advanced user, and for basic boxes or drawers (all the parts the same width), I spend about 10 minutes on the setup (adjusting the fit and centering the pattern on the lumber), and routing 3 boxes-worth of half-blind pins and tails takes, I don't know, maybe 10-15 minutes. Not sure how that compares with a conventional dovetail jig driven by a skilled operator.

Many of the drawers I've made have been joined full-overlay (or full-rabbet) to avoid having a separate, screwed-on drawer front. This does take a bit more time, since the drawer front (a pin board) is both longer and wider than the drawer back.

Routing the pins and tails for the 4 drawers in this vanity took about 90 minutes including multiple setups (there were 6 different board widths, and the bottom drawer's front was also offset upward relative to the tails in the drawer sides).


-Mark

[Mark Mueller]

Keith-

Please contact me if I can address the items you mentioned regarding your LS system - 888.804.6272 xt 4.

-If you bought your sytem used, you may not have receved the ball-ended, screwdriver-handled hex driver for operating the Wonder Fence. The rounded tip drops easily into the WF bolt heads without looking; using a regular Allen wrench or T-handle will definitely be less convenient.

-The fences are set up with shims and are adjustable in several axes, but it should be a one-time adjustment only. On the Wonder Fence, there's a dedicated area to add adjusting shims, and this is area never disturbed when moving/removing/offsetting the fence halves. Something's clearly not right, and we can discuss the solutions once we identify the source of the inconsistency.

-You are correct, the right angle fixture is not automatic, and using it is not unlike ripping lumber on a saw. To get the best consistency, light pressure on the fixture's body downward and toward the fence will cause the fixture will run flat on the table and track consistently along the fence. The white nylon gib screws are not terribly important, and a little loose is better than too tight...when I teach someone to use the sytems, I completely remove the adjusting screws for a few cuts to better emphasize the best technique.


-Mark

[Mike Goetzke]

I have the 17" system w/WonderFence and love it. I have made DT joints on it for some shop cabinets and a some dressers. I personally like the stand alone jigs better. Once set up the Incra works well and yes stack about 4 pieces at a time. My problem is as a hobbyist it could be a year between requiring DT's and the learning curve on the Incra is steeper than a dedicated jig. But, I'd break your are if you tried to take my lead screw fence.

Mike

[keith micinski]

Well as near as I can tell from this thread incras customer service appears to be second to none which is a big bonus. Thanks for the help Mark and If I get some free time I might take you up on your offer and give you a call. By the way I do have the wrench that came with it and I still find it a hassel to use and wish there were two cam locks on top that allowed you to adjust the fences. One thing I will point out is that I only break the dovetail stuff out about once a year and half the time is spent relearning the setups for the incra which aren't hard but I think you have to use the system a lot to remember them so if your plan is to use the system more frequently I could definitely see things be faster and easier.

[keith micinski]

Also I completely forgot to mention that I actually had better luck just taking the wonder fence off when using the 90 degree sled. As a matter of fact I think I forgot to do it the last time I made dovetails.