To Cyclone or Not?

[Ryan Dyer]

Yeah, i know, another DC question...

I REALLY need to get some type of DC going. I dont do all that much woodworking, but the dust all over the place is driving me crazy. I have done a TON of research including reading Bill Pentz site. Since i share my garage my plan is to have all my tools up against a wall. When doing a project they get pulled out and i will hook them up via Rocker expandable hoses. I know im not gonna get fine dust but i want a big enough DC so i can pull 2 4" hoses at a time plus i will open front and back garage doors so i get good cross ventilation which should solve the fine dust issue.

I have narrowed my choices to either

G0440 Cyclone
Oneida V3000 (highly doubt as too expensive)

or

G0548Z


I am leaning toward the cyclone so i can mount it up high in the upper right hand corner (see pic below). The bottom of the dust bin would be just above the black stripe.

My biggest concern is noise...is the G0440 really THAT loud? My garage is 20x40.

Those of you who have cyclones, can you see any issues that i might run into with mounting it that high up?

[Don Wacker]

Those of you who have cyclones, can you see any issues that i might run into with mounting it that high up?

I have a 3hp it is loud and its mounted outside. I dont know how heavy the two hp is but getting up that high is back breaking. Mine is about 12ft up and that was a job. After hurting my back we ended up having to use a ladder with a chain hoist. FWIW you can get a longer piece of hose from griz so that the barrel dose not need to be mounted up on a platform.

Don

[glenn bradley]

[QUOTE=Ryan Dyer;1821799]...is the G0440 really THAT loud?[QUOTE]

I have the G0440. The manual states 76db. I just stepped out in the shop and turned it on standing 15 feet away; I then spoke in a clear voice to my daughter standing right next to me. She could tell I was speaking and could hear the sound of my voice but, could not make out or even guess a single word even though she could see my lips moving. If I shouted, she could understand me no problem so, its not insanely loud like a garage band or anything but, I think that 76db is a little low given a regular garage-like environment. Ripping a piece of 5/4 white oak with a 24T blade on my tablesaw is louder. Just running a lunchbox planer without cutting anything is louder. My shop vac seems louder but, it is just obnoxious, not actually louder. Is any of this helping?

[Ole Anderson]

Probably not a clear answer to your question, but check out this cyclone noise video (2 hp Oneida)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X8qwMqm3Ek

[ian maybury]

Don't know the units in question Ryan, but the hard reality is that you normally can't have it every way. That is go for a smallish system, use 4in ducting but run multiple dust connections at once on a permanently installed/ducted installation likely to have longer duct runs with more bends - and get gold standard performance.

If you have something approaching (a genuine that is) 3hp then short ducts or more likely hoses (10ft or less) might allow you to achieve Pentz type airflow/CFM numbers - presuming that is that the rest of the system isn't restrictive, and is set up with the 6in or so inlet and an appropriate impeller for this.

It'd be a bit of a floor space eater, but a mobile unit is probably one way of achieving this.

There's precious little by way of hard information about on the dust separation capability of the various sorts of cyclones that are available, but if you're already going for a smaller type then it's probably another step towards the possibility of a mobile.

On choice of filter. I guess that depends on whether or not you are shooting for the HEPA needed to achieve a high level of air quality, or have already decided to go for something less - and on how good a job the cyclone does. If the filter is a finer type, then a cyclone is generally regarded as advisable to reduce the need for too frequent replacement. It'd probably be best to have the maker of the system confirm compatibility though.

ian

[Ryan Dyer]

[QUOTE=glenn bradley;1821857][QUOTE=Ryan Dyer;1821799]...is the G0440 really THAT loud?

I have the G0440. The manual states 76db. I just stepped out in the shop and turned it on standing 15 feet away; I then spoke in a clear voice to my daughter standing right next to me. She could tell I was speaking and could hear the sound of my voice but, could not make out or even guess a single word even though she could see my lips moving. If I shouted, she could understand me no problem so, its not insanely loud like a garage band or anything but, I think that 76db is a little low given a regular garage-like environment. Ripping a piece of 5/4 white oak with a 24T blade on my tablesaw is louder. Just running a lunchbox planer without cutting anything is louder. My shop vac seems louder but, it is just obnoxious, not actually louder. Is any of this helping?

Yes! actually that helps a lot. The manual/spec sheet now says 83-85dB for the G0440. Except for the 16 page cyclone brochure grizzly created. They still say 75 dB in there. I was wondering which one was true and i think you answered that for me. Though not the answer i wanted to hear

Do you have the Grizzly muffler on yours?

Probably not a clear answer to your question, but check out this cyclone noise video (2 hp Oneida)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X8qwMqm3Ek

That helps a lot too! That may have put the Oneida back on the list as oneida claims mid 70's for dB and that video seems to prove that it is. 80+ dB also seems pretty loud in that video.

Don't know the units in question Ryan, but the hard reality is that you normally can't have it every way. That is go for a smallish system, use 4in ducting but run multiple dust connections at once on a permanently installed/ducted installation likely to have longer duct runs with more bends - and get gold standard performance.

If you have something approaching (a genuine that is) 3hp then short ducts or more likely hoses (10ft or less) might allow you to achieve Pentz type airflow/CFM numbers - presuming that is that the rest of the system isn't restrictive, and is set up with the 6in or so inlet and an appropriate impeller for this.

It'd be a bit of a floor space eater, but a mobile unit is probably one way of achieving this.

There's precious little by way of hard information about on the dust separation capability of the various sorts of cyclones that are available, but if you're already going for a smaller type then it's probably another step towards the possibility of a mobile.

On choice of filter. I guess that depends on whether or not you are shooting for the HEPA needed to achieve a high level of air quality, or have already decided to go for something less - and on how good a job the cyclone does. If the filter is a finer type, then a cyclone is generally regarded as advisable to reduce the need for too frequent replacement. It'd probably be best to have the maker of the system confirm compatibility though.

ian

Ian, thanks for your input.

I do not want to duct my garage. I just don't care for how it looks and i don't want the expense or the hassle. So if i go the cyclone route, i will be using a short run (2'-4') of 6" PVC with 2 wyes that drop down to 4" which i will then run straight down to about waist level. I can then hook up my 2 rockler expandable hoses and drag them to the machine.

The reason i want to be able to pull 2 4" hoses is because eventually i will probably get a shark guard or an over table arm guard. Right now i only need 1 and i might never need 2 hoses, but I try to buy more tool then i need so i have the capability. I think its Ron Sheridan that has a good quote about this


The singe stage G0548Z is rated at 1700 CFM. Its got 3 4" ports on it. I have never owned any kind of DC system, but from my research, that should be more then enough CFM to run 2-4" hoses even with seasoned filters. What worries me about getting a single stage is that it seems everyone who has one is modding theirs. Either adding a trash can seperator or a thein baffle etc. Obviously there is some issues with them. If i go the single stage route, i will be adding a thein baffle in the dust collector itself. So i got some modding to do and i also lose floor space, a LOT of floor space if i use pre-separators. The cyclone blower is also built for a separator with a larger impeller, where as the singe stages are not so its kinda up in the air as to what kind of CFM numbers i would get after doing the mods.

Realistically how often do you have to clean the filters? once a project? every 30 min? Every 30 min would drive me nuts...

So this brings me to the cyclone. Seems everyone wants one or is trying to mimic one. I don't have to do any modding, just put it together and I'm ready to go which gives me more time on other projects. Plus i gain floor space. Other then my wallet being significantly lighter, its seems like a winner. I am just worried about the noise. EVERYONE says its louder then their single stage.

I am not sold on the cyclone or single stage yet. I am trying to get opinions from you guys who have dust collectors to help make my decision.

Regardless of which DC i go with i want good filters, minimum 1 micron (venting outside isn't an option). From other forum posts, Pentz seems to sometimes have an all or nothing approach. I think that 4" hose will get some of the fine dust, i want to capture it and not spit it right back into the air. The rest will hopefully be taken by the cross draft from the 2 garage doors and my garage will be spotless


Anyone with a Oneida V-System, how much gets to your filter?

[Jim Neeley]

Ryan,

If you plan is to get the entire thing up in the air, consider how you're going to change out or dump the dust collector. It doesn't take long, even with a lunchbox planer, to fill one up! :-)

[Ryan Dyer]

Jim,

The plan is to build a small shelf to hold the collection bin on the wall. The black strip is about 48" off the ground. So the bottom of the collection barrel would be about there. I would think that would be better then on the floor as i don't even have to bend over to open it. Just unlatch, carry over to garbage bin and dump. Alternatively, if i get it setup and it is a pain, i can always use some flex hose and put the bin on the floor.

[Ben Hatcher]

In my experience, the losses associated with the cyclone are less than the losses created by the filter clogging in my pre-cyclone setup. Obviously, the filter will still clog sooner or later, even with the cyclone, so you'll eventually have a worst of both worlds senerio. But from what I can tell, I get more flow for longer with the cyclone than without.

If you don't plan to run plumbing, you may want to consider a more portable model that you roll to the machines.

As for noise, the bigger, the louder. But a simple enclosure can reduce the sound transmission by 10 db or so without too much effort.

[Jim Neeley]

Jim,

The plan is to build a small shelf to hold the collection bin on the wall. The black strip is about 48" off the ground. So the bottom of the collection barrel would be about there. I would think that would be better then on the floor as i don't even have to bend over to open it. Just unlatch, carry over to garbage bin and dump. Alternatively, if i get it setup and it is a pain, i can always use some flex hose and put the bin on the floor.

Or a catch-container with a bottom hatch, to drop into a roll-out trash can...

[Paul Wunder]

Ryan

I think that ultimately you may be better served by the G0440 cyclone vs a single stage unit. The G0440 is a two stage unit with excellent separation of fine dust before it ever gets to the filter. Chances are that you will replace the single stage filter much sooner than you would the cyclone's filter. There goes much of your initial price advantage. Secondly, the Grizzly cyclone has a decent fan curve, arrived at fairly honestly while the single stage unit is probably overstated by half. Grizzly does not provide a fan curve for the single stage. A few thoughts on noise: Cyclones are noisy. Period. By mounting high on the wall you may significantly reduce the decibels that reach your ears. ClearVue, on their website has a video showing a simple noise reduction enclosure (some framing and Rockwool) that reduces the noise significantly. I have a ClearVue but that is overkill for your situation. The G0440 is a good unit, and has performed well in independent testing. The cyclone, because of its power will permit you to run a single 6" main duct and run takeoffs for each machine rather than running a series of separate 4" pipes.

Paul

[ian maybury]

On your points Ryan. It sounds like a mobile with a cyclone would make a lot of sense - running a short hose to one machine at a time to maximise your flow. The problem with a single stage unit is that it seems it's likely to blind fine HEPA filters too quickly to be an economic proposition to run. Meaning you could get forced into running a very coarse bag filter that will dump a lot of the dangerous fine dust back into your shop.

I wouldn't want to rely too much on open doors to clear dust. It would help to some indeterminate degree, but you'd need to think carefully about the climate - and realistically if you are standing near a machine that's chucking lots of dust into the air because the collection isn't working well heaven knows how much dust you are actually breathing.

When Bill Pentz talks of needing 800 - 1000 cfm to do a decent job of fine dust collection on say a saw that total cfm would be split between a top guard and a below table connection - and your saw hoods have to be set up to handle that sort of flow too or it'll be wasted. Around half of that airflow will pick up chips, but doesn't usually move enough air to tolerate much filter blinding, or to capture fines at machines very well.

You need to be very cautious of cfm claims for dust systems sold to the DIY market, they are usually the result of testing in ideal circumstances which are not representative of any reality. Like I said if you have a genuine 2.5 to 3 hp you can probably get close to the higher cfm numbers if you keep the hoses fairly short, and size them correctly.

It's not that Bill P is extreme, more that (a) he had the guts to speak out on the technical realities of the DIY systems that were about when he did his work, and (b) engineering is by definition all or nothing sort of discipline. He's mostly associated with the bigger 5hp systems because he was designing ducted systems for relatively large DIY shops - but he also in his pages pretty specifically deals with systems of lower HP for smaller shops.

I'm sure he'd agree that you can get very decent extraction from a smaller unit - look at the low HP end of the table in section 5. on his 'dust collection basics' page. The system has to be designed and set up right to achieve this though - with the basic being to ensure that the total pressure drop is low enough.

Put another way - engineering is not a forgiving discipline. A given situation and solution is either capable of delivering decent air quality or not, and get it wrong and no amount of hype or wanting it to be otherwise makes any difference to what you breathe....

ian

[Leo Graywacz]

Something like this?

[Don Wacker]

Height with the bin at 4 ft would be higher that this.

[Ryan Dyer]

Yeah, exactly like both of those...

My ceilings are close to 16'. So i figure 8' for the cyclone + 4' off the ground should put the motor around 12'. Should give me plenty of room still...


I think you guys talked me into the cyclone...

So now its a matter of Oneida 3hp vs Grizzly 2hp G0440....

As an alternative I also am considering possibly making a "lean to" on the outside of the garage to store compressor and dust collector. Not sure i really want to go down that path though...