Why a Leg Vise?

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Chris. Do you think it could glued up from 2 thinner boards ?

Umm, honestly no idea. It could work but I don't want to speculate. You could try it and if it comes apart later on, replacing it an 8/4 or thicker chop probably wouldn't be to hard.

Now you've got me thinking about doing the angled leg vise on my bench - which has just been a thick top with an end vise sitting on sawhorses for over a month now . . . but I'm trying to figure out how to mortise angled legs in the top, mortise the stretchers, and still put the damn thing together. . . I guess an angled leg means you go with lap joints for the long stretchers, or does the apron just negate the need for long stretchers?

Do it.... You know you want too! Yes, the apron sits on a lap joint in the leg, and serves as the long stretcher at the top. At least in the Nicholson design it does. Why not do something like in the pic I linked to previously? Make the leg that the vise will be attached to really wide. I would think you could mortise it straight into the top and by keeping it wide just cut the long edge grain at the angle you want the vise to be at. I cant say with any certainty that this would work, but I bet if you toyed with the design for a while you could come up with a solid plan.

[Zach Dillinger]

How thick is the front piece of a leg vise usually ?

I used a chunk of 12/4 poplar, but thats only because I had a scrap piece that was perfectly sized already (just needed to be cut, slightly, to length). I don't think I'll ever be able to split it, like I did with the 8/4 pine one I had before this one.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm playing around with drawing things up - I don't know how wide I want to make the leg - I spent a fair bit of time making square dogholes by hand, and I already covered the bottom of one do to poor planning around my end vise install . . . I was hoping to go with a wooden screw, but a metal screw and it's narrower dimension gets me a little bit more room to work . . .

I suppose the angles not enough to make a huge difference, but I wonder how you planned your screw location? Seems like I see numbers between 8 and 10 inches thrown around for the distance between the screw and top of the bench - do you measure the distance from the screw to the end of the installed chop, or from the top of the bench?

[Chris Griggs]

I suppose the angles not enough to make a huge difference, but I wonder how you planned your screw location? Seems like I see numbers between 8 and 10 inches thrown around for the distance between the screw and top of the bench - do you measure the distance from the screw to the end of the installed chop, or from the top of the bench?

I don't recall exactly how I determined the distances. Basically, I wanted the screw low enough that I could clamp a wide board failry deap down for edge jointing, but not so low that I had to stoop down like crazy to adjust the vise. I also remeber reading that you don't want the screw to far from or too close to the parallel guide since a lege vise uses the vertical racking created to get its power. Although, I wonder if that distance is one of those things that matters more in theory than in reality. I think unless you went to extremes of closeness or farness between the guide, the screw, and the top you're probably okay with wahtever.

I would just focus on what will be most practical in bench construction and use. How deep a board you want to be able to put in, plus not bending over too much, plus what makes sense for ease of installation.

[Mike Holbrook]

Chris your comments about your leg vise's chop pushing your top around have me thinking....

just make sure where ever the top of the chop contacts the bench top is well solid. Leg vises have a lot of power and I've had problems with mine pushing the top back from the apron.

Since my plan is to do a split top with larger boards, maybe face glued, I think this issue becomes extra important. The plans I have in Hand Tool Essentials (not a split top) attach the bench legs to the top with mortises in the top (half way through a 4" thick top) and tenons in the legs. The Benchcrafted Split Top Roubo plans run a apron/stretcher widthwise between the two legs on the ends but do not reinforce the longer sides with any kind of apron. I can't tell what if any other reinforcement might be present under the two top sections without buying the plans. I am wondering if the two width long apron/stretchers are the only support the two pieces of the Benchcrafted top have for support, other than the legs. I think I have seen split tops (Chris's ?) that incorporated cross members within a lengthwise apron. I guess cross members could be an obstruction to dog holes though, unless the spacing was well thought out.

[Chris Griggs]

If I did it again I would get a wider board for the front apron and try to glue the apron to the front of the bench top, rather than have the benchtop sit on top of the apron - this would completely eliminate the separation issue.

Yes, the Nicholson design has members that run across the short dimension of the bench between the two aprons, and yes they can obstruct the dog whole, but if you plane there location and the dog holes location in advance you can avoid this, or at least keep it to a minimum.

I needed to be able to knock down my bench since my fiancee and I are still somewhat transient. I have cleats glues to the sides of my short top stretcher, and lag screws up through them to hold the top on, but there is ieough play in them that the top still shifts back under the pressure of the vise.Once we get more permanently settled I will probably glue the top pieces down to the tops of the aprons to make the top more secure.

[jamie shard]

For consideration... the only thing I don't like about the Nicholson is having to reach under the apron to push up dogs. If I made it again, I would probably put a 4 or six inch gap separating the top from the apron... except maybe right under the vise.

[Garrett Ellis]

I have been keeping up with this thread from the beginning.... I still don't get the advantages of a slanted leg vise over a vertical one. It was said that you can clamp wide boards without the vise screw interfering, but can't you do that with a vertical leg vise too?? As long as you keep the board to the side of the screw, you still have the same distance from the benchtop to the floor. I can't imagine the little extra surface area of clamping you get from the slant is worth the complexity of the angled leg/vise/joinery...

Are there other advantages that I'm missing?

[Chris Griggs]

I have been keeping up with this thread from the beginning.... I still don't get the advantages of a slanted leg vise over a vertical one. It was said that you can clamp wide boards without the vise screw interfering, but can't you do that with a vertical leg vise too?? As long as you keep the board to the side of the screw, you still have the same distance from the benchtop to the floor. I can't imagine the little extra surface area of clamping you get from the slant is worth the complexity of the angled leg/vise/joinery...

Are there other advantages that I'm missing?

I don't think your missing anything. The only leg vise I've ever had is slanted, so I can't compare, but I'm not necessarily convinced that the slant is THAT advantageous. I think it probably has the small advantages that have been discussed but if it were vastly superior you'd see a lot more slanted leg vises and a lot less straight ones. Given the number of straight leg vises that are out there I have no doubt that they are perfectly adequate.

[Kees Heiden]

When you clamp a long board in the legvise to the right of the screw, then you get wracking and can't clamp it very tight. With the slanted legvise that problem would be eliminated I guess.

[Mike Holbrook]

I hate to mention Schwarz again but I have been studying his DVD on Making & improving benches. He suggests that many benches fail at one or more of the three main functions of a bench: surface work, edge work or end grain work. Surface work is done on the top of the bench. I plan to do end grain work in a Moxon Vise. That leaves edge work. I would like to be able to work the edges of 8 foot boards on the side of my bench, this is where the leg vise may come into play in my plans. Although the truth is I am not yet convinced that I need a leg vise or any vise permanently attached to my bench. A crochet on one front edge of a bench with coplanar legs and a sliding dead man or large apron is capable of holding long boards for edge work quite well. I am not even convinced that a leg vise will make set up much faster. Bob Rozaieski did a very interesting podcast on building his split Nicholson bench (@...logancabinetshoppe...com...). Bob did not put any permanent vise on his bench. He has a removable twin screw vise, something like a single sided Moxon. I think the side of his bench serves as one vise jaw, like a leg vise. Bob does not like leg vises for some of the same reasons Garrett mentions.

I don't think there is a perfect vise, they all have pluses and minuses.The leg vise is my favorite permanent vise even with its limitations.

[harry strasil]

Wracking of vise jaws is not a problem, its just another obstacle to overcome with a bit of ingenuity.

The Emmert style vise I was given by a neighbor went through a rather tough life on a farm as it was probably the only vise on that farm, it was well used and abused some so it has a loose problem due to all the wear and abuse. My solution was to cut some scrap 1/8 hardboard pieces and drill a hole in one end of each for a retaining bolt with a locknut.

[harry strasil]

Is the crochet dovetailed in permanently or can it be removed?

If you can take it off, that's genuinely clever.
I like the retention of Granpa's coachmaker's vise - there's some romance to legacy tools staying in the family.

The Crotchet just drops in a large dovetail Jim, I have the same thing on my Demo shop bench now too.

When I first started my blacksmith appreticeship under my Father and Uncle, I used my Grandfathers Coachmakers Vise a lot as I was replacing spokes and felloes in high wheeled wagon wheels along with working down timber for reaches, tongues and axles for farm wagons.

[Mike Holbrook]

It took me a while to figure out Harry's solution to vise wracking, bloody brilliant! An adjustable dummy insert to balance the thickness of any board placed in one side of the vise is a great idea. It just so happens I have a fair number of thin pieces of purple heart left over from trimming the sides of plane bodies that I think I now have a use for. I like the idea of a removable crotchet too. I think I may "borrow" that one for my bench design. A bench with a leg vise & slidding dead man and removable crotchet should be able to hold just about any board for edge work.

[jamie shard]

With the slanted legvise that problem would be eliminated I guess.

Right, for most furniture sized boards (up to ~8") there's no concern about wracking and you have the entire depth to the floor. I have a little mark on my vice where all the forces balance out, so if I center the board on that mark there is no wracking.

Harry's solution works great for vices where the board has to be above or one side of the screw(s).



p.s. Since we're complimenting Harry... I stumbed across the pictures of your traveling bench --- I think I saw it before, but this time I suddenly saw the genius in the staggered dogs w/wedges system.