Red Oak doors, what finish should I use????

[Tim Offutt]

Help,
Here's the situation:

I need to finish twenty two new red oak interior doors. They are two panel if it matters. I have a large, well lit area that is heated but do not have a spray booth. I need to end up with a satin finish over a chestnut colored stain. The stain that is picked out and matches the red oak stair case is Minwax oil base English Chestnut.

I have a Lexaire 3-stage turbine system so I can spray water based products. I have sprayed lacquer but it was always in a very well ventilated area and at this time of year that would be very hard to do in the midwest. It would get real cold, real quick with the ventilation needed to be safe.

I have a good Sherwin Williams store local but anything else will need to be shipped which I am not against.

I don't know what sealer and finish can be applied over what stains. Can I apply a water based sealer over the MW oil base stain? I have read about the tannins in oak causing problems with water based finish. A million questions, I am really lost.
Anyone have some good advise for a guy who doesn't want to ruin a bunch of doors

Thanks,
Tim

[John TenEyck]

I've used WB topcoat over oil based stain on oak several times with no problem. However, I had to wait at least 2 days for the stain to dry before I could put on the WB topcoat. If I only waited 24 hours I could easily scratch off the topcoat with a finger nail on the test samples I made. A benefit of oil stain under the WB topcoat is that it pretty much eliminates the grain raising that happens if you put WB directly on oak.

I would go to SW and talk with them about what products to use. They make a very nice WB product called KEM-Aqua, and I think it comes in satin.

[Clisby Clark]

Be careful with Waterborne finishes over red oak. I'm no expert, but from what I've read there are Ph problems with the red oak and WB finish. Target Coatings recommends a barrier coat of fresh alcohol-dissolved dewaxed shellac under any wb topcoats. Check the forum at their site for good info with waterborne finishes.

[Scott Holmes]

Clisby,

You may be thinking about the issues with "red" stains; not red oak. Many red stains (e.g. Minwax Red Mahogany) react poorly with waterborne finishes.

I don't know of any issues with red oak and waterborne finishes other than oil stains tend to bleed back oil stains which is a problem for most finishes.

[Tim Offutt]

Scott,
Would it be better to not use the Minwax oil based stain and use a water based product. I have never used water based stains so I have no experience to fall back on.
Thanks to everyone for their advice.
Tim

[Tim Offutt]

John,
Thanks for the info. I have researched the KEM-Aqua products online and they appear to be something that would work in my situation. The local SW store is a good place for paints and industrial coatings but they did not have much advice on wood finishing. I have used their water base industrial coatings and had good results.

SW doesn't call out the sheen level as Satin, Semi and Gloss. They use Bright Rubbed, Dull Rubbed and Medium Rubbed. Am I correct in thinking that Bright is Gloss, medium is Satin or Semi-Gloss and Dull is Matte or Flat? This is one of the things they couldn't answer at the local store.


Also, is this product a true clear or does it have some amber qualities. I have used MW Polycrylic water based finish before and it seemed to lack the warmth you get with an oil based product. It looked cold and very clear if this makes sense.

Thanks,
Tim

[Clisby Clark]

Scott. 99.99999994 percent of the time, I'll yield to your finishing acumen compared to mine, but in this case-particularly with Target Coatings, Jeff Weiss has mentioned several times in his forum to be careful with Red OAK due the Ph issues. He mentions two conditions called bridging and pinholing as possible bad outcomes. This may just be an issue with Target Coatings....I'm not sure. He still says it can be done as long as you use the fresh shellac as a barrier before the waterborne. PS...thanks for all your informative posts-I really enjoy them.

[John TenEyck]

I've finished quite a bit of red oak, hundreds of BF. When I use WB clear coats, such as GF Hi Perf. Poly I get a perfectly water white finish, which some people like and some don't. This product also causes quite a bit of grain raising on the first coat, and you have to sand it back pretty aggressively to eliminate it. That said, 3 or 4 sprayed coats gives a beautiful, uniform finish. I've never had any black spots show up. Note: I never use steel wool with any oak, and I'd guess iron from some where is the source of any black spots showing up under WB topcoats. If I want a solvent finish look with a WB topcoat there are a couple of options. You can use GF's or MinWax's sanding sealer first, or a coat of SealCoat Shellac. All of them will impart an amber look. Or you can add a few drops of Honey Maple, or is it Honey Amber?, Transtint dye to the WB topcoat if it needs it. (Some WB products are specifically formulated to mimic the amber look of solvent based products (GF's Enduro-Var is one.) Personally, I favor the SealCoat Shellac approach, in any case, because it minimizes grain raising so I don't have to sand much, and it's pretty cheap. I favor dyes most often, but if you want to stain the piece oil based stains work well. No grain raising either, and the WB topcoat adheres fine as long as you let the stain dry thoroughly, or at least that has been my experience. And you can add the Honey Maple/Amber Transtint to the WB topcoat, if required, to give it the look of a solvent based. Hope this is helpful.

[Tim Offutt]

John,
Very good info, thanks a million. I like your idea of a sanding sealer and then the WB topcoat. But it is probably because I am not comfortable with the WB products yet.

I am going to SW tonight after work to pick up some KEM-Aqua product to test. Hopefully this will be as easy as it sounds. This is the perfect weekend to do this, really warm in Indiana, in the high 40's. Won't take much to keep the shop warm.
Tim

[John TenEyck]

I just looked very closely at the KEM-Aqua Lacquer literature and I found a couple of interesting things. Seems it's only available in 5 gal minimum quantities, since it's targetted at the pro/production market. The Product Data Sheet discussed the issue of tannin bleed through with oak, which is what someone was talking about above I believe, and recommended their sealer underneath. Like I said, I've never had the problem, but a coat of SealCoat should prevent it as well as their sealer. Also, the PDS suggests the KEM-Aqua looks like a solvent based product, but someone at SW should be able to tell you, or have them open a can and look at it. If 5 gals is more than you need, try Benjamin Moore if you have one in your area. I'm sure they have one or more comparable products.