Saw Build: Finally ordering some saw parts, but need some advice

[Chris Griggs]

Well, you may all think I'm nuts but this weekend I sold my LN 14" xcut saw (which Archie was more than happy to get a great deal on from me) in order to pay for the parts for two saws.

I will be making a 10" dovetail saw with .018" 15ppi saw plate canted with 1 3/4" depth at the toe and 2" a the heel.

I will also be making my own version of the, for lack of a better description, the Gramercy Sash. It will be 14" long, 12ppi, combo filed, canted with 3 1/8" at toe and 3 1/2 at heel.

My question is about the plate thickness for the sash. I was thinking of going with a .020" thick plate like the gramercy and also the 16" LN. I emailed Mike Wenzloff to see what he thought and he cautioned me that this could create issues with heat buildup and temporary plate warping in deep cuts. He said it would be fine if I used wax and good sawing technique, but also said that he generally favored the .025" as the best compramise between speed, strength and longevity.

What are your thoughts? Will a .020" plate be noticeably faster/smoother then a .025" plate? Have those of you with thin plate rips (LN or gramercy) noticed any issues when making deep cuts? Will the .020 at that depth be too fragile with that depth of saw plate?

Any thoughts, advice, or experience would be appreciate.

[Pat Zabrocki]

Well, you may all think I'm nuts but this weekend I sold my LN 14" xcut saw (which Archie was more than happy to get a great deal on from me) in order to pay for the parts for two saws.

I will be making a 10" dovetail saw with .018" 15ppi saw plate canted with 1 3/4" depth at the toe and 2" a the heel.

I will also be making my own version of the, for lack of a better description, the Gramercy Sash. It will be 14" long, 12ppi, combo filed, canted with 3 1/8" at toe and 3 1/2 at heel.

My question is about the plate thickness for the sash. I was thinking of going with a .020" thick plate like the gramercy and also the 16" LN. I emailed Mike Wenzloff to see what he thought and he cautioned me that this could create issues with heat buildup and temporary plate warping in deep cuts. He said it would be fine if I used wax and good sawing technique, but also said that he generally favored the .025" as the best compramise between speed, strength and longevity.

What are your thoughts? Will a .020" plate be noticeably faster/smoother then a .025" plate? Have those of you with thin plate rips (LN or gramercy) noticed any issues when making deep cuts? Will the .020 at that depth be too fragile with that depth of saw plate?

Any thoughts, advice, or experience would be appreciate.

I have two 14 inch saws from Mike Wenzloff (1 rip, 1 crosscut) and they are eash 3 3/8 under the spine. The plates are .025. Both of these saws just race through 4/4 white oak likes butter. I don't notice any heat or other ill effects. The cuts are just beautiful, smooth as can be. I think the most important thing is to be sharp and use good technique, after that you're just reporting the box score I'm looking forward to pics of your build. I have a kit from Mike that is conveniently enough a 14 inch crosscut with an ebony handle (reagan's patent style) that I am going to start soon too.

Below are couple from the fleet (blatant gloat, i know)

cheers and keep us posted w/pics
pat
Wenzloff14s.jpg

[Chris Griggs]

Those are beautiful Pat. Were those kit saws or did Mike build them?

Either way, I'll want to see your reagan patent handle when you get it done. I'm leaning towards using the Kenyon patterns or something similar but have (and am still) considering the reagan as well. I'm unsure if I'd like the reagan handle though, could be super comfortable, but could also be restricting.

Thanks for input. That's pretty much what Mike said. No issues with .025, but wasn't sure if .020 would be an issue.

[Archie England]

Hoping your new saws are nice as mine -- major gloat on benefiting from Chris's desire for new saw kits! I'm loving the new LN crosscut!

[Shaun Mahood]

This might be ignorance talking, but is there any reason you couldn't build one of each type of handle and switch them out on your first saw to see which you like better? It might even be possible to buy another saw plate of the same size and sell an already handled kit for someone else to finish.

I'm looking forward to seeing your build (or the end result) - I love these saw threads.

[Chris Griggs]

This might be ignorance talking, but is there any reason you couldn't build one of each type of handle and switch them out on your first saw to see which you like better? It might even be possible to buy another saw plate of the same size and sell an already handled kit for someone else to finish.

I'm looking forward to seeing your build (or the end result) - I love these saw threads.

For the handles, no reason other than laziness. For the plate, I was actually thinking I could just go with the thinner (.020) and if I have problems or kink it it would be easy and inexpensive enough to order the (.025) as a replacement at a later dates. That's one of the advantages of using folded over slotted backs.

[Shaun Mahood]

You could always put that laziness to good use after you build the saw, and take enough breaks when sawing that heat can't build up.

I would totally love to build my own saws some day, but that laziness thing took hold of me years ago and I can't seem to get rid of it.

[Pat Zabrocki]

Those are beautiful Pat. Were those kit saws or did Mike build them?

Either way, I'll want to see your reagan patent handle when you get it done. I'm leaning towards using the Kenyon patterns or something similar but have (and am still) considering the reagan as well. I'm unsure if I'd like the reagan handle though, could be super comfortable, but could also be restricting.

Thanks for input. That's pretty much what Mike said. No issues with .025, but wasn't sure if .020 would be an issue.

Mike built all of mine (12) and then there's the kit.... I know I have a problem. I'd like to think there is a 12 step program but strangely, I have 12 saws so maybe those are the steps.
Pat

[Mike Holbrook]

Chris, glad to hear you are going ahead with your plans for saws. As I have posted before I love my Gramercy Sash saw with the .20" plate. I'm not sure what the plate thickness is on my Wenzloff Half-Back saw, may be over .25, but the kerf feels gigantic compared to my Gramercy saws. Gramercy has made quite a few of these saws and I think you would hear about it if people were having trouble with plates warping etc. I'm not sure if there is a difference in the saw plate steels though. Chris Schwarz has written that he has gravitated to thinner saw plates because he thinks they cut quicker although others seem to disagree. Chris seems to think a major factor with saws is how much wood they have to remove from the kerf, thinner plates making less saw dust having less tendency to clog teeth.

If it was me I would look into using the Gramercy saw nuts, they do not require you to cut those small mortises inside the bolt holes. Also I love the American Black Walnut handles, light and seem plenty tough enough. I got my Gramercy Handle Maker's Rasp recently too and find it very helpful for the job it is designed for.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, glad to hear you are going ahead with your plans for saws. As I have posted before I love my Gramercy Sash saw with the .20" plate. I'm not sure what the plate thickness is on my Wenzloff Half-Back saw, may be over .25, but the kerf feels gigantic compared to my Gramercy saws. Gramercy has made quite a few of these saws and I think you would hear about it if people were having trouble with plates warping etc. I'm not sure if there is a difference in the saw plate steels though. Chris Schwarz has written that he has gravitated to thinner saw plates because he thinks they cut quicker although others seem to disagree. Chris seems to think a major factor with saws is how much wood they have to remove from the kerf, thinner plates making less saw dust having less tendency to clog teeth.

If it was me I would look into using the Gramercy saw nuts, they do not require you to cut those small mortises inside the bolt holes. Also I love the American Black Walnut handles, light and seem plenty tough enough. I got my Gramercy Handle Maker's Rasp recently too and find it very helpful for the job it is designed for.

Yeah, I haven't heard about any issues with Gramercy or the LN thin plate for that matter which is a pretty big dedicated ripper. Also, it's not like I'm going to be using it for massive tenons anyway. I picked a depth of just over 3" deep just in case, but really tenons that deep are few an far between for me. If I do find a need to cut a lot of deep tenon's I'll end up making or buying myself a 16-18" long 4-4.5 deep .025+ thick saw anyway.

I'm right there with you on the saw nuts and saw handle rasp. Ordered both from TFWW last night just before I started this thread.

BTW, Your halfback is probably more like .032 or .035.

[Mike Holbrook]

Congrats on your project, I know you will have major fun making them.

I was just practicing with my H M Meier 8ppi, Wenzloff Half-Back 10 ppi, and Gramercy Sash saw 13 ppi doing crosscuts. I don't know if it is the thin plate or how the teeth are filed, probably both, but that Gramerch Sash Saw is just so easy to use. It just seems to melt a path through the wood. It may be my sawing style but I just seem to get straighter, effortless cuts with that saw and I am talking about sawing cross grain with a saw that is actually more filed for ripping. I was sawing small boards but the blade was actually cool. I agree that unless you are sawing massive tenons in a hurry, certainly not the job of the saws you are making anyway...

Guess I need to go ahead and order the Gramercy saw vise today so I can work on my older saws. I tried to sharpen the HM Meier in a bench vise, not very good results I'm afraid. I keep forgetting to order the West Systems epoxy kit so I can finish repairing a few more saw handles. I have been distracted by plans for my bench project and 3 bossy GSD bitches. It is actually ok to call female dogs that name as that is actually what they are.

[Chris Griggs]

It is actually ok to call female dogs that name as that is actually what they are.

Lol! About 6 weeks ago we brought home a stray dog ( a ridiculous little Bichon of all things) that had been abandoned by its owner. I've had cats my whole life - the little guy is great, but man dogs are a lot of work, especially when you are training them still. It's seems almost like having a toddler around (not that I know what that's like). Before the dog I generally had a bit of time (30 min or so) to tinker at my bench in the mornings before leaving for work, but the dogs walk has cut that out. I still need to complete my bow saw as well.

FWIW, my saw vise is just two 8/4 pieces of maple. I cut rabbets in them so they will rest on the edge of my bench and top edge of my leg vise, tops are beveled to stay out of the way of my file. I'd love to have the Gramercy, but don't sharpen enough saws at the moment to justify the $150 expense.

The smoothnes of you Gramercy I would think is a combination of the tooth count, good filing and the kerf thickness.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Chris, we've made Sash saws with .020 blades and with ones .024 thick. It depends on the depth of the blade. Our experience is that a saw up to the depth of 2-3/4" works nice with the thinner blade. A deeper saw runs better with the thicker one. Regarding the depth of the saw you want to build, I'd recommend to go with the thicker blade.

Klaus

[David Weaver]

I'd go either way with that size of a saw. With a 16" tenon saw with more depth, I'd go .025 definitely, and with smaller than that, I'd go with .02".

There shouldn't really be any difference in cut speed with .02 vs. .025 plates. The saw that is heavier will cut faster if the filing job is the same, but it will be marginal between a .02 and .025" plate saw that is only slightly heavier - the geometry of the teeth will make a bigger difference.

I like the durability of the .025 inch plate if i'm on the fence, I guess.

[Chris Griggs]

Well I was pretty much on the fence, and David your right that it probably won't make that big of a difference either way in terms of speed. While I'm thinking this will be used as more of an xcut than a rip, the .025 plate I guess will be good if I end up using it as more of a ripper. Also, I was originally thinking that I would prefer the lightness, but as I rethought it, I do find that I like some weight to the saw so that I can let the saw do the work. The more downward pressure I have to apply myself the less accurate my sawing is. Gravity and the saw are far more accurate than I will ever be so that's a good case for the extra weight of the .025.

Betweem Mike W, Klaus, and David all leaning toward .025 I'm thinking I'll heed that advice and go with that. It's not like .025 is going to feel thick and clunky by any stretch of the imagination and it potentially gives me a more versitile saw in the long run. It is about 22% thinnner than what I've been using so it should still feel quite svelt by comparison.

Thanks folks!

EDIT: Just placed my order, went with the .025". BTW, just wanted to say that it seems like Mike is back on his game. I emailed him yesterday afternoon with my questions and he responded with a VERY details and informative response to my inquiry within a few hours. I'm excited to be doing business with him!