Best Honing Guide?

[Prashun Patel]

I have an MKII and it's great. It excels at holding narrow chisels and at holding odd-shaped blades - like the tapered width block plane blades from LV. There are three different 'height' settings too, which makes it possible to hold very short blades like those for spokeshaves and still achieve a variety of bevel angles.

The MKII also has a little knob that also changes the eccentricity of the roller slightly which makes it possible to put 2ndary bevels on a blade without unclamping.

If you want something that is no-brainer repeatable and accurate, then this is a good guide.

If you want to ultimately learn to free-hand sharpen, then you'd probably do better to skip the training wheels. Further, free-hand sharpeners usually recommend hollow grinding b4 honing, which the MKII won't help you with, since it only works on a flat surface.

[Derek Cohen]

I have been a little overwhelmed with sharpening chores, four new planes with a bunch of left over 1/4" 01 plane blades from Steve Knight's retirement. Unfortunately I think most of the blades I got from Steve are going to be too short for the planes I built, especially after grinding their very rough edges out.. I have a couple Veritas plane blades I am still trying to fix that got bad bevels on my Tormek jig. I have been trying to redo bevels on my 2" beltsander and or my coarser stones but it still is slow work. The Tormek hollow ground bevels are hard to rework using flat stones or a beltsander as the edges have to come down before even getting back to square one.

Archie I think it is easier in one respect to do this work freehand as it is easier to adjust as I go. On the other hand, it is a bunch of grinding to do by hand. I may just buy a few new plane blades for the new planes I made (new post I guess). I can't actually finish those planes until I have blades to fit wedges and adjustable mouths to. I need those planes for projects. I think my thoughts ran along the line of hoping a guide would at least assure I get something that works. The Tormek, so far, has just made things worse when I try to grind bevels on it. I have no jig for my beltsander. I have been trying to figure out if the Veritas grinding jig or some other rest would help with it. It is hard to feel what a flexing belt is doing to the bevel, although it surely does the opposite of the Tormek.

Mike, I built two grinding jigs for the beltsander ..

http://inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTec...rinderMkI.html

http://inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTec...erMK%20II.html

The basics for preparing a blade are: (1) flatten the back (2) polish the back edge of the bevel (3) hollow grind the primary bevel, and (4) hone the edge.

The belt sander creates a flat primary bevel, which then requires a secondary bevel (via a honing guide). A Tormek or dry grinder creates a hollow grind, which may either be honed on a honing guide or freehand.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

I'm not a fan of things in my shop that are noisy, messy and difficult to control - that's why my five-year old can't come downstairs.

The jigs used with an inverted power sander are clever, but they take off material quickly. This, I have found is a liability in sharpening.
I layout sandpaper on a flat substrate for the purposes of grinding the primary bevel. I use the Kell guides, which firmly hold even the stubbiest plane blades.

A few passes with this method establishes the primary bevel. It doesn't generate much heat, and I can stop before getting too far ahead of myself.

I use a black magic marker to illustrate my progress. It's easy to see where you're removing steel with some sort of dye.
You can certainly polish the primary bevel, but I don't see any performance advantage.

I move the guide closer to the the cutting edge, raising the angle of intersection to form the secondary bevel on stones.
I use Shaptons, but any stone that's flat will do. Prior to honing, I take another swipe with a magic marker to make my progress clear.

This method is really clear for those of us with failing eyesight or a dimly lit shop. The marker line is abraded in the process.
I like a secondary bevel about 1/32 or an inch wide, but I rarely manage that - they're almost always "thicker".

Have a look at the method mentioned above, as shown by Deneb Puchalski at Lie Nielsen.
I can get the iron in my Gordon jack plane cleaned up in less than five minutes, if there's still a primary bevel.

Use David Charlesworth's "ruler trick" to flatten the back just aft of the cutting edge - there's no need for the entire back of a plane blade to be flat, it just needs to be sharp at the cutting edge.

Sandpaper to grind
A granite kitchen sink cut out to hold the sandpaper

The Kell guide
Shapton 1000
Shapton 8000

The guide makes your results reproducible, with minimum setup time.

jim
wpt, ma

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Mike - you mention difficulties getting the initial bevel set by hand - if these are bevel down planes, all I worry about is:

a) is the bevel low enough to clear the sole - a 45+ degree bevel in a 45 degree bedded bevel down plane isn't going to work, as the back of the bevel will hit the wood before the cutting edge. As long as the angle is reasonably less than the bedding angle, and I can repeatedly re-hone the blade without changing the bevel angle drastically, it's fine.

b) is the bevel not too shallow - once, years ago I honed one of my plane blades with something like a 20 degree bevel - this edge didn't hold up very well if it hit a hard spot.

Outside of those two things, I'm good. I don't care too much if the blade is 36 degrees instead of 35, or 32 instead of 30 or whatever. Obviously, if these are bevel up planes, that changes everything, as the bevel angle effects the cutting angle.

I assume you know this, but I thought I'd mention it. I really overthought bevel angles for a long while.

I don't even worry too much about being perfectly square anymore if the blade is square enough to be within the range of adjustment of the plane, either with the lateral adjuster or by installing the chipbreaker at a slight skew. Of course, if your plane's bedding area is a little tighter, you my need to be more precise at being square, as there may be less room for lateral adjustment.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

As far as the length of blades in the planes - it'd be easier to tell from the side, but they don't look too terribly short for the plane - I'd be tempted to just shorten the wedges a little bit. Some krenov-style planes have sort of a "scooped" section in the middle where the bed is, allowing a short blade to project more.

If you look at images in Finck's book, several of the planes have blades that project fairly little from the plane body. The other trick you'll see is that the back of the wedge is relieved a little bit, so once it leaves the body, it sort of curves away from the blade a bit, allowing you to get the adjusting hammer at both the blade and wedge independently.

[Andrew Joiner]

I'm into simple and effective. I call it frugal, my wife calls it cheap. I got this from Derek's site I think it's called Brent's jig.http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...ng System.html

Thanks Derek!

I built a shelf level with my sanding belts face. I have my Arkansas stones set flush to the shelf as well.
Same jig setting for sander and stones, but on the stones I clip a brass shim to the jigs base to lift it for a microbevel. I use the same jig for plane irons and chisels.

I didn't like the idea of rolling a metal roller on my stones and I you can't roll on a running belt sander. This solved all my problems.

[Jared McMahon]

I have the Veritas MKII and one of the Kell side-clamp guides. The Veritas is great for easily setting a precise angle and providing excellent support but I've had things slip or skew slightly during sharpening. For some tools the Kell is excellent. I mostly use rehabbed antique tools so it's very useful for me to be able to dial in an arbitrary bevel angle to establish a sane primary bevel on a tool that could be dull, wonky, etc.

With all that said, if I just want to refresh the edge on a tool where I've firmly established a primary bevel, it's easy enough to do that free-hand where I don't even bother fussing with a guide most of the time. The take-away is, get all three; the Veritas, a side-clamper, and a good pair of hands.

[Dale Cruea]

I have both LN honing guides. I like both very well. The MK II is a little better because it will set the tool up the same every time.
The older guide holds better. As stated in a post above you must watch to get the bar parallel to get it to hold well.

[Christian Castillo]

Mike, that's exactly how I use it, like training wheels.

[Mike Holbrook]

Wow, some great information guys. I have spent some time thinking about & digesting it.

Derek thanks for that info on guides for beltsander/grinders, mine is only 2" but works similarly to yours, even has the disc on the side, although my disc does have a table. Your design has me thinking about the rest on my Tormeck. I am thinking I may try to rig something up so I can use the Tormeck rest and all it's attachments over the beltsander.

Jim, the specialty belts I mentioned above that I use on my beltsander are available in a wide range of grits, particularly much finer grits. These belts last very well and do not heat up the metal. These belts are used by custom knife makers for very delicate work which is how I found them. Lee Valley actually sells them now or you can find them at knife making supply shops. These belts have opened up a whole new realm of "grinding: for me. These belts start to rival buffing wheels or leather beltsander belts and buffing compounds.

Joshua I hear you regarding obsession with exact bevel angles. I think I was starting to take this philosophy to a place too far, although I agree with the idea. I have decided to keep two groups of chisels, one with steeper bevels for whacking and the other set for paring, which will require more precise work. I also would like to use some micro/secondary bevels and more subtle cambers. The wood planes I have made are of the type that you mention with tight side to side tolerances and movable mouths which as you say are less tolerant of less precise bevels. The Blum Tools wooden plane I have uses very thin specially made blades that require more precise sharpening, although the plane came with a jig for sharpening them. So I think I have a significant quantity of specific tools that require more precise sharpening.

Andrew simple is often good or even better. I like your concept although I am not sure I exactly understand it yet. My Blum Tools (blumtool) fore plane came with a jig especially set up to sharpen the much smaller blades it uses. Blum makes his sharpening jigs out of pieces of UHMW plastic.. He also makes an ingenious The Sharpening Box that holds the chisel or plane blade in place allowing the sharpener to move the stone over the tool. The box has a precise mechanism for setting the tools bevel. He apparently even holds a patent for this rig. He even makes simple plastic jigs specifically for honing his blades at specific angles. If you have not seen his unique sharpening tools you might check them out. If I don't get a Veritas MK II I may buy Garry's sharpening box. It is not cheap but can eliminates the need for angle jigs, bevel jigs, ponds, stone holders....A great benefit of this system is the flatness of the stone is less critical as the whole stone can be moved over the tool, also I think, keeping the stone flatter.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Have you considered something as simple as the guide block used by Rob Cosman? Piece of wood cut at an angle with magnets to hold the blade in place. It helps you set the angle. Simple..... Not sure how that would work, but you could probably create something to try very inexpensively. Andrew Joiner might be proud (but his wife will call you cheap)...

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

Since you are using the Blum planes, have a look on my website .... http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...orePlanes.html

This is a review of the smooth and fore plane. In it I developed a different way to hone the small blades, one that works extremely well and takes much less effort than Gary's ideas (with respect to Gary).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tri Hoang]

The most versatile one is probably the eclipse-style honing guide...No honing guide would automatically give you a nice camber profile without a proper technique. I own a variety of guides but use the eclipse-style guide more often because it's much faster to set up than most. For smaller items, profiled tools, skew, gouges...free hand is probably the best.

For establishing the initial bevel. I suggest a grinder with a sturdy tool rest. Nothing beat the efficiency of the grinder at this stage.

Frank Klauz was once asked what angle to sharpen a chisel at and his answer was sharp.

[Andrew Joiner]

Andrew simple is often good or even better. I like your concept although I am not sure I exactly understand it yet. My Blum Tools (blumtool) fore plane came with a jig especially set up to sharpen the much smaller blades it uses. Blum makes his sharpening jigs out of pieces of UHMW plastic.. He also makes an ingenious The Sharpening Box that holds the chisel or plane blade in place allowing the sharpener to move the stone over the tool. The box has a precise mechanism for setting the tools bevel. He apparently even holds a patent for this rig. He even makes simple plastic jigs specifically for honing his blades at specific angles. If you have not seen his unique sharpening tools you might check them out. If I don't get a Veritas MK II I may buy Garry's sharpening box. It is not cheap but can eliminates the need for angle jigs, bevel jigs, ponds, stone holders....A great benefit of this system is the flatness of the stone is less critical as the whole stone can be moved over the tool, also I think, keeping the stone flatter.

Mike, The wood block guide slides next to the long edge of the stones or sanding belt abrasive surface. You slide and hone it sideways along the width of the blade. The wood block slides on a Formica or MDF platform that's level with the abrasives faces. If you slide/hone it front to back like a rolling honing guide on the abrasive the wood or UHMW would wear off and loads the stone.

Any slippery solid flat surface would work for this sharpening station platform. I set mine on my workbench, it's heavy so it won't move. I use a Formica covered Mdf slab about 2"x3' built up to about 6" thick at the edges. It's got my 2 stones and my 3"x21" beltsander set ( inlaid) flush into it. Each stone and the beltsander has room to the side of it for the wood block to ride on as you push down and hone (or grind)

This is from Derek's site again. I call it the sharpening station platform,he calls it the honing board. I have stones and beltsander set in flush, he shows 600 grit paper glued on ,but it's the same idea.

The honing board
What we have here is 600 grit W&D contact glued to the MDF. Later I realized that a better system would be to simply have two clamps (using bolts and butterfly nuts) so that sandpaper strips could be changed out.
The far end is a section with Veritas green rouge – just “scribble” this on the MDF.In between the two, the MDF surface is given a coat of wax to reduce friction.

[Mike Holbrook]

Well I certainly don't lack options now.

Derek I believe I read what you wrote about Blum's Planes & the sharpener you made before I bought my plane. I think you have added more information though so I have more homework.

Andrew looks like you found a way to do the work some use a granite or glass surface for without having to purchase or find the specialized glass or stone. Plus the angle/bevel jig saves having to have a manufactured guide. Congrats to you and Derek for kicking it down a notch price wise.

I would prefer to find better ways to use some of what I have now vs adding more things to keep up with.