millwright mortise chisel questions.

[Bob Smalser]

Selected Audel on chisels:

[Joel Moskowitz]

I just feel compelled to comment on this. There are two reasons why the backs of these chisels are so convex. The first is possible improper lapping. The second, misuse. and here is where proper nomenclature is important. These chisels look like normal, fairly thin millwrights chisels. While on the surface to our modern eyes they might look like socketed mortise chisels or a bunch of other similar designs they aren't. 19th century tool catalogs routinely offered dozens of styles of tools all similar but slightly different. The people in the various trades understood the subtle differences and bought accordingly. Buck for example offered a millwrights mortise chisel. IT looks exactly like a millwright's chisel but is heavier all around. They are rare - as most mortising at the time was done by machine or with larger mortises, drilled out and then squared up with wide millwright's chisels. Millwrights chisels BTW weren't used in a mill to make furniture or anything like that - they were used by Millwrights to do the woodworking in mills - where the framing was big, complicated, and had lots of joints. The reason millwrights chisels are so long is for that reason - to get to the bottom of a deep joint.

In the US after the 1840's or so there was almost no mortising done by hand on furniture. Some of course, for very high end custom, but the overwhelming amount of furniture came from factories and the demand for American Mortise chisels of any design was nil. For mortising by hand the retail catalogs of the time recommended (obviously not all of them but some) English mortise chisels.

People can and have done great work with all sorts of tools, You don't need the perfect tool for every task. But by the same token incorrect nomenclature in this case has resulted in a tool purchase which if used the way the purchaser originally intended would result in the tools bending or snapping in two in no time.

[Bob Smalser]

Yup. These shipwrights using fragile, narrow deck chisels almost identical to the OP's are surely about to bend or break them in that nasty, laminated, oak-and-resorcinol caprail on a minesweeper.







Utter nonsense. Just like no trades chopped a lot of mortises and rabbets by hand. I suggest you consider shipwrights, boatbuilders and carriagemakers where curved workpieces didn't easily fit machines or vice versa.

[Joel Moskowitz]

These guys are using nice wide thick chisels to pare away a roughed out mortise that was done on a machine (look at the tool marks in the mortise). Not a real stress test. They wouldn't be ideal for chopping a mortise from scratch (too wide, but they are thick enough not to bend).
Compare them to the narrow chisels on the bottom - the top one has already bent. Try chopping a 1/4" mortise with that. one deep cut a little too deep, and bend or crack.

[Chris Vandiver]

Yup. These shipwrights using fragile, narrow deck chisels almost identical to the OP's are surely about to bend or break them in that nasty, laminated, oak-and-resorcinol caprail on a minesweeper.







Utter nonsense. Just like no trades chopped a lot of mortises and rabbets by hand. I suggest you consider shipwrights, boatbuilders and carriagemakers where curved workpieces didn't easily fit machines or vice versa.

Those carpenters are trimming drilled out mortises and that are quite shallow to boot. I'll say it again, I wouldn't use the 1/4" or the 3/8" that are pictured at the beggining of this post, to do ANY serious mortising. I would certainly use them for trimming and mortise clean up, if that is what I had.

[Bob Smalser]

Pop quiz.

Between 1938 and 1945 alone, how many warships, Liberty Ships, Tankers, Oilers et al did we build in the USA? There were 2800 Liberty Ships alone, so the total number had to be over 10,000.

How many lifeboats, jolly boats, tenders, gigs, cutters, et al do you spose were required for those ships? And what did they use to build the boats then? We built tens of thousands of boats, and ravaged the West Coast's Yellow and Port Orford Cedar and the East's White Oak stands to do it.



While occasionally a flooring saw and a brace can reach into those curved rabbets and frame pockets to hog out the waste, the bulk of the work was done using deck chisels. As it is today.



And bent? C'mon. The narrower chisels were forged with a tad of sweep to resist bending or breaking. It's there on purpose in the 1/8, 1/4, and 3/8 below. Further, if they were gonna bend or break it would be in the opposite direction. Most of the stress on a mortise chisel is bevel-up, not bevel-down:



Have you guys actually ever chopped mortises or rabbets at a commercial pace? And in laminated WO? Sure doesn't sound like it.

[Joel Moskowitz]

"Have you guys actually ever chopped mortises or rabbets at a commercial pace?"

Yip - of course I used a mortising machine - just like the guys in the picture. (Of course i only did for specific projects - not day in and day out. )

[Joel Moskowitz]

here's a link to a wood boring machine
http://www.hal.state.mi.us/mhc/museu.../brngmach.html

http://www.hal.state.mi.us/mhc/museu...s/z0000199.gif

This is what millwrights used to drill out mortises, angled holes, and anything needed big holes. They are worked with both hands, fast, and fairly common in the 19th century. They also are easily set to drill at a specific angle - You can eyeball it but if you do this for a living you want to set and forget. Also it takes a lot less skill than using a brace. They were not used in the furniture industry (factory of bespoke). The big challenge in the millwright world being that the beams of a mill were usually far too heavy and long to bring to a machine. You had to bring the machine to the beam.

[Bob Smalser]

Yip - of course I used a mortising machine - just like the guys in the picture.

Translation: No, you haven't. You can't clamp a mortising machine to most places shipwrights and boatbuilders chop mortises. Just like your argument that there was no American demand for mortise chisels is so ridiculous. Many hundreds of thousands of stem rabbets, keel rabbets, frame pockets, deck beam pockets, clamp pockets, stantion pockets, cap rails, etc, et al say otherwise.

[Joel Moskowitz]

here's how the rail in the picture was done. look at the tool marks. The rail locations were laid out from the uprights and then taken into the machine shop and mortised with a regular hollow mortise bit. that's why you see the ridges in the mortises. Then they took it outside, and pared to the original layout lines.

If you read what I wrote - I'm talking about no demand from the furniture industry.

[Bob Smalser]

If you read what I wrote - I'm talking about no demand from the furniture industry.

Oh, I read what you wrote, and you are mistaken on several levels, just like you were about bent blades:

... and the demand for American Mortise chisels of any design was nil.

You don't seem to understand how a boat is built. They are basically fastened to the floor and ceiling with shoring and the parts bent in before any pockets or mortises are cut. There isn't any moving the workpiece to the power tool. You take the tool to the workpiece, whether hand or power. Think about it. Basic Common-sense Construction 101. Laying out plumb pockets then bending the workpiece afterward would be a recipe for disaster.

That thousand-pound laminated cap rail was more likely laid out on the stantions, drilled in place using a boring machine, and the mortises cleaned up by hand. One has to lay the mortise locations out, first...and that must be done in place on a curved piece, not a hundred or more yards to the indoor shop where the power tools are. If they had a portable hollow chisel mortiser, just a few more cuts and no hand cleanup would have been required at all. Further, my father worked as a shipwright in the yard depicted in the photos, and the first hollow chisel mortiser he'd ever seen was one I showed him in a commercial shop I was working in circa 1974.

And even if they had a portable hollow chisel mortiser, the vast majority of pockets in these hull shapes offer no place to clamp the tool to, adjustable for angle or not:



And this is what a large stem rabbet looks like. Note that in spite of its size, he's finishing it with...a framing chisel.

[joel cervera]

Lots of opinions here for and agin using these chisels to mortise. But ultimately opinions fall short when compared to direct experience. And though I began this thread asking for opinions I am left feeling that direct experience trumps opinion.. and is therefore my best guide. That direct experience being two fold. Firstly direct experience on Bob's part owning and using these same chisels making mortises. He seems to have the biggest collection of them I've seen anywhere and I bet he has used them to chop a mortise or two. Secondly I already own these so I might as well put them to use. I am sure chisel and wood will tell me the rest. If anyone can comment based on direct experience bending or breaking a chisel like this while chopping a mortise.... well then that might make for some more lively discussion..

Joel

[Mike Holbrook]

Back to the OP's original questions for a minuet. If two people at Bob & Joel's knowledge level do not see eye to eye on these points, certainly those of us with only a small fraction of the knowledge are going to have a hard time coming up with definitive information on a specific tool made by a specific manufacturer. I am past the point of trying to find the perfect hand tool and the exact way to use it. I am just trying to find tools that I think I will enjoy using for the work I have in mind. Maybe it is more important to understand the questions than to own some correct answer.

I am personally just grateful to have such a wonderfully diverse selection of old and new hand tools to choose from. I am also grateful to have the opportunity to read the thoughts of people of Bob and Joel's level of dedication to Woodworking. Isn't our attraction to hand tools more about their diverse nature as opposed to the increasingly specific nature of machines? Is the beauty of a chisel more about how well it does one specific job or how well it can be adapted to do many different jobs as well or better than the more modern, mechanized tools?

[Chris Vandiver]

Lots of opinions here for and agin using these chisels to mortise. But ultimately opinions fall short when compared to direct experience. And though I began this thread asking for opinions I am left feeling that direct experience trumps opinion.. and is therefore my best guide. That direct experience being two fold. Firstly direct experience on Bob's part owning and using these same chisels making mortises. He seems to have the biggest collection of them I've seen anywhere and I bet he has used them to chop a mortise or two. Secondly I already own these so I might as well put them to use. I am sure chisel and wood will tell me the rest. If anyone can comment based on direct experience bending or breaking a chisel like this while chopping a mortise.... well then that might make for some more lively discussion..

Joel

I say you're absolutely correct, you should give them a try. You might want to try what is commonly called a mortise chisel, so you can have some reference. Blind faith isn't always a good thing. By all means, let us know how it works out.

[Bob Smalser]

… Buck for example offered a millwrights mortise chisel. IT looks exactly like a millwright's chisel but is heavier all around. They are rare - as most mortising at the time was done by machine or with larger mortises, drilled out and then squared up with wide millwright's chisels.

Millwrights chisels BTW weren't used in a mill to make furniture or anything like that - they were used by Millwrights to do the woodworking in mills - where the framing was big, complicated, and had lots of joints. The reason millwrights chisels are so long is for that reason - to get to the bottom of a deep joint.

And where did you get these nuggets?

Refer to Audel. “Mill” refers to length, not thickness. Longer chisels were often preferred by factories and shops where storage and portability weren’t issues, and don’t refer to the timber framers who framed the buildings. Even though they can be the exact same chisels, those are generally called “framing chisels”.



The minor differences in shapes are because these were all made by different manufacturers, not because any subtle grand design of the all-knowing. Buck Brothers didn’t have any special insight into millwright work. They merely had thirty serious competitors and wanted their product to stand out. You should be familiar with advertising hype.

Frankly, your meme of pushing English chisels is getting shop-worn, not that there’s anything wrong with English chisels.