Did I run too many wires?

[Matt Benton]

I'm running 60 amps to a new building to be my shop. I ran 3 6AWG in conduit and am using 8AWG to the ground rod outside the building.

Did I run to many wires? I noticed my 220v tablesaw and planer only have 3 wire plugs. Do I only need 2 hot (1 to each side ofthe breaker) and the ground wire for the circuit, or do I need one for the neutral? If so, what would the neutral wire attach to in each box?

Thanks!

[Dave Wagner]

YoI too have a 60AMP feed to my garage. You should have 4 wires for a subpanel from the main, the Ground and neutral need to be isolated (and separated) in the subpanel. Most panels have them hooked together, just remove the jumper or add another one.

I have 1 - 220v outlet for my shaper, I used a locking round 220 4 prong plug/socket (Like a generator plug). (Since I already had it from a previous project.

http://www.handymanclub.com/projects...all-a-subpanel

[Matt Benton]

Dave,

Thanks for the info! So, 2 hots to the 60 amp breakers in each box, ground wire from ground bar in shop panel to ground rod, and 6AWG neutral from shop panel to garage panel.

Is there a separate bus for the neutral in each box? Also, do I need 12/2 or 12/3 romex to wire the 220v plugs? I bought 12/2...

Thanks again!

[Thomas Bank]

I'm assuming that you'll have 110V circuits for lights and other receptacles? For those you'll need the neutral. And neutral and ground should each have their own bus bar.

You'd use 12/2 (2 insulated wires plus a bare ground) for 220V. You'd use xx/3 wire for things such as a three-way light circuit or for wiring a range or dryer where you have both 220V (requiring both hots) AND 110V (requiring the neutral).

[Dave Wagner]

Yes. I only 10 circuits (well 8 singles and 1 double for 220). I put the 60 AMP breaker in the Main box.

My understanding when I wired mine a few years back, everything should be grounded at the MAIN Panel, no separate grounds at a subpanel. That is why you run 4 wires, 2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground, but separating the neutral and ground in the subpanel. I talked to a couple electricians and they said the same thing, it passed the inspection first time and said it looked professional.

heres another good example and how I wired mine up.
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/e...nel/01/new.htm

[John McClanahan]

Before you change anything, check with an electrician. Grounding to the ground rod may be ok if you unbind the neutral and the ground. You don't need the neutral wire for the 220 volt tools, but you will need it for 110 volt outlets.

John

[Stan Krupowies]

Dave,

Also, do I need 12/2 or 12/3 romex to wire the 220v plugs? I bought 12/2...

Thanks again!

It depends on the current draw of the devices you are wiring. 12/2 would be for up to 20 amps on 220v. If you are drawing up to 30 amps you would need 10/2. Either way, you would have 2 hots and a ground. For 110v you would use the same (12/2 for 20 amp and 10/2 for 30 amp) but you would have 1 hot, 1 neutral and a ground.

[Matt Benton]

From my understanding, according to 250.32(B), any feeder running to a separate building or structure is required to have a grounding electrode system just like a service.

It may require a separate neutral as well. If this is the case, do I run neutral and ground to the same ground rod?

I can't believe this has to be this confusing. I'm not even worrying about the outlets at this point, I just need to get a 60 amp circuit from panel to panel....

[Joseph Tarantino]

Dave,

Thanks for the info! So, 2 hots to the 60 amp breakers in each box, ground wire from ground bar in shop panel to ground rod, and 6AWG neutral from shop panel to garage panel.

Is there a separate bus for the neutral in each box? Also, do I need 12/2 or 12/3 romex to wire the 220v plugs? I bought 12/2...

Thanks again!

"2 hots to the 60A breakers in each box"? doesn't the main panel get the 60A breaker, and the subpanel receive the incoming wires (2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 gound) to the appropriate buss bar in the subpanel? so you are not planning on running a ground from the main panel to the sub panel? must be a local thing. when my electrician friend here in NY pulled my permit for me and layed out the sub panel for my garage, he had me run 2 hots, a neutral and a ground from the main panel to the subpanel. never had an ounce of trouble.

[Jim O'Dell]

I'm confused (not uncommon)...is your question on the number of wires from your main box to your sub box? Or from the sub to the outlet?
From Main to Sub....I understand you need 4 wires: 2 hot, 1 ground, and 1 neutral. The ground and the neutral in the sub box need to be separate and run back to the main box. You need to talk to an electrician or to a local inspector-make sure you pulled a permit to do this work- to verify if you can run a separate ground to a separate ground rod for a sub panel install.
From the sub's breaker to the outlet for a 220 tool, you only need 2 hot and 1 ground...no neutral. Unless you will be hooking up an appliance that also needs 110 for a timer, like a dryer or range, then you need the neutral also to tag on a 110 volt supply for the timer. Makes no sense since the ground and neutral are bonded in the main box, but them's the rules. Jim.

Note: My thoughts do not replace the expert advice an electrician is better at offering.

[Matt Benton]

Thanks for all the replies!

Here's my plan:

Run (2) 6AWG hots from the breaker in the garage panel to the hot buses in the shop panel. Run 8AWG from the ground bar in the shop panel to the ground rod. Run 6AWG from the neutral bus in the garage panel to neutral bus in shop panel.

I did speak to a local electrician and he indicated that if he did the job, he would run a ground rod at the shop, and Not run the ground back to the garage panel...

[Dan Friedrichs]

Makes no sense since the ground and neutral are bonded in the main box, but them's the rules.

No, it does make sense. The neutral can have some voltage on it due to conduction losses through the wire - by not running any current through the ground wire (normally), it's actually at a lower potential than the neutral (even though they end up at the same place in the main box).

I did speak to a local electrician and he indicated that if he did the job, he would run a ground rod at the shop, and Not run the ground back to the garage panel...

There's no reason to "guess" at what the "right" answer is, here. You need to call your local AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) and ask how they require it be done. Depending on how they regard the subpanel, it may either need a 4-wire feed or a 3-wire feed with separate ground. You may not even be able to legally do this work without a permit.

[Joseph Tarantino]

.....Run 8AWG from the ground bar in the shop panel to the ground rod..... I did speak to a local electrician and he indicated that if he did the job, he would run a ground rod at the shop, and Not run the ground back to the garage panel...

must be a DFW thing. that wouldn't be code here in NY, at least not 7 years ago. but if you're pulling wires from the main panel anyhow, why not just pull a ground also, assuming the main panel is properly grounded? seems like the ground rod at the shop is adding another step to the process.

[John Coloccia]

My understanding is that the latest NEC requires ground rods at all buildings, 4 wires pulled for all new sub panels in detached buildings, and no bonding of the neutral and ground in the sub panel for the detached building. Previously, you could bond the neutral and ground in the detached subpanel if there were no conductive paths between the building, like a pipe for example. I don't know why they wish to prevent that now. Dan has the right answer, though. You need to ask your local jurisdiction since they don't have to follow the NEC.

[Joe Angrisani]

I can't believe this has to be this confusing. I'm not even worrying about the outlets at this point, I just need to get a 60 amp circuit from panel to panel....

=Here's my plan: Run (2) 6AWG hots from the breaker in the garage panel to the hot buses in the shop panel. Run 8AWG from the ground bar in the shop panel to the ground rod. Run 6AWG from the neutral bus in the garage panel to neutral bus in shop panel...

It's not confusing, Matt. You're just trying to avoid the fact that you need to pull another wire: a ground from the main to the sub.

You can ask the question as many times as you like, but you're gonna get the same answer. The ground for a sub-panel comes from the main panel. Four wires. Once more, with colors: You bring 120V in from the main panel on the black wire and feed one leg in the subpanel (120V breakers will use just one leg). You bring 120V in from the main panel on the red wire and feed the other leg in the subpanel (120V breakers will also use this leg. 240V breakers will use both legs). You bring Neutral in from the main panel on the white wire and feed the isolated neutral bus. You bring ground in from the main panel on the bare wire, and feed the ground bus.

When I wired my shop in Dec 2011, they specifically DID NOT want me to use the separate ground we drove in the shop foundation forms as a Justin Case. But a two minute conversation at the Building Dept clarified everything that needed to be done at my location.

Do what Dan said. It's no longer the weekend, so go see YOUR building department today and talk to an electrical inspector. They won't bite. Ask him what THEY want to see when they come do an inspection.