Thoughts on tool quality

[Van Huskey]

Stephen, that is an apples and oranges argument. When SCMI can build a shaper and sell it for a little more than a WP lift and PC router it will be a different story. The shaper you bought was MUCH more than a router and lift new and will remain so, someone has to buy the new item and has to pay MUCH more for it. Quality almost always costs and the fact we can get great used machines for very little money doesn't change that formula, the quality cost someone.

[Stephen Cherry]

Stephen, that is an apples and oranges argument. When SCMI can build a shaper and sell it for a little more than a WP lift and PC router it will be a different story. The shaper you bought was MUCH more than a router and lift new and will remain so, someone has to buy the new item and has to pay MUCH more for it. Quality almost always costs and the fact we can get great used machines for very little money doesn't change that formula, the quality cost someone.

Van- that is very true. An scmi shaper is much more than a router with a good lift. One thing I try to emphasize is that you really do not need to loose your shirt if you want to do woodworking. It's possible to buy good machines at values that will not depriciate drastically the moment you pick up the machine. I've got a car sitting in front of my house that I paid rediculous money for and now is worth a small fraction. I do not want to continuously make the same mistake, so I've been trying to avoid depriciating assets.

For example, I do have a normal router with lift. It's a big PC variable speed router, with a Mast r lift. It's a pretty good setup. It's hard to say what I paid because it was a package deal. As I recall, it was the router and lift, a maple bench top with wilton vises, lots of bessy cabinet clamps (over 10, maybe 20, these are not cheap), a stanley no 6, some other planes, a bunch of router bits, AND an Oneida 3 hp cyclone with about 1500 dollars of duct. All this was 1800 dollars. Who knows what I could get for all of this, I have never bought any machine with the thought of reselling. But, I think that if I wanted to I could get my money back if I needed to.

Of course, some people like to have new, and I am happy about that. THis is what allows others to get a good deal later.

So, in conclusion of my rant, it's possible to buy quality tools and own them as "money in the bank", and it's also possible to own them as "money down the drain". It's up to everyone to choose for themselves.

[Eric McCune]

My theory is buy the best tools you can afford and enjoy the creative process. When I buy a cheaper tool it almost always ends in frustration or buying the tool twice. Buy the right tool wince once, buy the wrong tool wince every time you use it. I hope to be doing this hobby for 40 years, so I'm taking the long term approach.

[David Kumm]

Stephen and Van, we need to keep the used secret to ourselves- until we sell. Seriously, when I see the prices of new average or less equipment I realize it is getting more difficult to actually overpay for some used stuff. The market is so low that with more than a little homework you can equip a commercial quality shop for hobby prices. Of course the trailer, forklift, phase converter, etc are part of the deal. Dave

[Bruce Wrenn]

Quality is like buying oats: If you want nice fresh clean oats they will cost you, but if you don't mind if they have been through the horse, then they are cheaper. I buy quality as much as possible, but some things are over priced. As an example the Forrest WWII blade. I own two, and paid a little under $100 for each. Only one has ever been on the saw. I also own several Delta / DeWalt 7657 blades, one of which is on the saw most of the time. The 7657 delivers just as good of cut as the Forrest, but I can buy five for about the same as one Forrest. My Grizzly jointer (bought used for $100) does everything I ask of it, so I can't see buying another more expensive unit. As for HF, I have several tools that more than serve my needs: Dial caliper, dial indicator, and magnetic base, digital caliper, HVLP spray guns, 6-n1 nail gun, brad / stapler combo, multi-tool. I own two of the HF multi-tools (bought the second in case the first quit.) Had them for almost five years now with no problems. My son gave me a Fein (quick release model) that he rescued from a dumpster. In my work, I use the HF's regularly. Never have bothered to buy a blade for the Fein.

[Van Huskey]

Stephen and Van, we need to keep the used secret to ourselves- until we sell. Seriously, when I see the prices of new average or less equipment I realize it is getting more difficult to actually overpay for some used stuff. The market is so low that with more than a little homework you can equip a commercial quality shop for hobby prices. Of course the trailer, forklift, phase converter, etc are part of the deal. Dave

Woodworkers and used equipment is a weird combination. Many don't seem to be able to source it, even today, and many more don't want to deal with it. I was just looking at used machines this weekend and was marvelling at the fact I could get a rebuilt machine for the price of its Grizzly "equal". You can actually do much better but this was with a professional rehab and sold at what is really a market premium. The reality is even in a depressed market like today the fair market value of quality used machines is still way more than the FMV of low quality stuff, though you tend to see more of it overpriced. My point is even in the used market quality still costs.

[john lawson]

I try to buy value, and for me that is buying high quality at a low or medium price. For example, I own a Rojek 5 function machine. It cost about half as much as a comparably equipped Felder, and about 2/3 the price of a Mini Max. It probably cost 1/4 or 1/5 the cost of a Knapp.

My experience is that there is a cost value continuum that is sort of logarithmic; that last 10% of quality will cost you double or triple. If you think about cars, trucks, or premium sound equipment the very best will cost you 3x to 10x what something else will cost that will do the job. Toyota Corolla vs. Ferrari. Will the Toyota outperform the Ferrari? No way, but most people do not need nor could they properly "use" the Ferrari (but it would be great to try).

I use a 5 sided cut to set the crosscut fence on my Rojek and it stays square and cuts great, but it is not a Felder or Knapp. But I don't have to have a those machines for what I do, and if I do say so, I make some pretty nice and precise furniture using my Rojek.

I agree very strongly with what others have mentioned about used equipment. The only new piece I own is the Rojek (now 10 years old). I bought a mid 1980s Centauro bandsaw for $800. With some elbow grease and paint and a VFD I have a really nice bandsaw that few people have the pleasure of using. I also bought a used Woodpecker Router table, 3hp PC router and a Masterlift for $350 and it was virtually new, just lucky. Last, I own a 1952 Shopmith 10ER that is my go to machine as a drill press and horizontal boring machine. It is ancient, but very well made and reliable.

I buy and use good quality equipment, but I usually don't pay much for it.

A last thought, I bought my son a WoodRiver #5 v3 from Woodcraft last year for his birthday. It took ten minutes to hone the blade and it cuts as good as any plane I have ever used, including a Lie Nielson, and it is very well made. Price about 40% of the cost of the Lie Nielson.

john

[Pete Moe]

Putting together a shop of decent tools is like a journey to me, and it's been part of the fun. Craigslist has a bunch of overpriced crap (including HF items listed for more than their original sale price), but every now and again there are good tools at good prices. I've met some pretty cool folks accumulating tools from CL. I buy the best quality tool that I can afford, and upgrade when I've discovered all its flaws and drawbacks. Other people do this too, because I see them on CL all the time. Good tools at good prices go quickly there, but I've managed to get some scores. I would much rather buy old American than import old or new, but there's a mix in my shop. I'm still waiting for a Unisaw to show up on craigslist with the heading "Old Saw Free to Good Home".

Some cheap tools you just cant get setup properly now matter how hard you try. I'd much rather have an old tool with fewer features, good steel, and dead flat/square/etc than a new tool with more features and bad fit and finish.

Oh, and is anyone free this weekend to help me pick up a Griz G1073 BS and get it loaded into my basement?

[David Kumm]

Van's point about used is correct. Mediocre used stuff- and there is a lot of it out there- tends to be overpriced compared to its value even though the dollar amount is low. Higher end machines are the best deal. Some old table saws, tanny, Yates, Greenlee, Whitney are priced less than a nice unisaw. An old 12" jointer may be less than a DJ 20. It pays to study the machine and the market. There are even bargains in the euro market. A Knapp, if you find one is likely to be less than either a Felder or MM even though the build quality is way better and most parts can be sourced elsewhere. I would argue that the comparison to oats is incorrect. More like a diamond passing through the horse if you know what diamonds look like. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

I think buying quality used machinery is really the best solution.. I often see people looking at used, but wanting to buy new so they will have a warranty and have no " problems"

A few years back I bought a new General Int 20" Planer new, it came with a pinched wire in the motor, as soon as I tried to fire it up, it cooked.
My new General Int. Drum sander blew a circuit board on the variable speed 4 months after I bought it. In both cases, the repair was done in my shop, I was the mechanic.
I had a new General 15" Wide Belt that had a factory issue which meant me tearing down the top end and adjusting a bolt..
My new Steel City edge sander table locking handle broke, they sent me a new one and I installed it myself..

All those repairs where done on new machines, under warranty.. What I learned was that buying new does not mean not pulling wrenches.. Woodworking machinery means pulling wrenches from time to time, so why not pull wrenches on used machinery instead of new ?

I have since bought and restored an SCM 24" Bandsaw.. Bought a demo Griggio Jointer, a 9 year old SCM Wide Belt Sander and recently a 5-6 year old Felder Edge Sander ... I am a big fan of used higher quality stuff...

[Bill LaPointe]

All of us started our hobby (or profession) as novices. We bought things, in many cases, because we didn't know any better. This applies to expensive tools as well as low cost ones. As we got better at what we were doing, it didn't take long to realize that a tool was just not capable of what we were expecting it to do. So we bought a better one, based on advice from others or just knowing what we wanted a tool to do. As your spendable income increases, you might decide to buy a tool not because you need it or that it will help you do better work, but just 'cause you want it. I'm bad to do that with both tools and pistols, just can't help myself. I'm in the "look for a bargain in a top of the line used tool" bunch. Made some big goofs there, too, but enjoyed the lessons. (mostly) Expensive aint always better, but quality always is.

[Jim Matthews]

I don't think anyone can argue you can spend your way into mastery, though someone could look at some of my tools or tooling and think I believe that!

I do think the Indian/Arrow is fatally flawed though I here it all the time. Give an archer like Brady Ellison poorly balanced, crooked arrows with nasty fletching and I could probably school him with proper equipment. A master will always be better at overcoming or going around the limitations of the tools but there is a point where the tools are poor enough that an average woodworker will produce a better final product with excellent tools than the master will with poor tools.

The same school of thought is behind many schoolkids abandoning musical pursuits, due to instruments that never perform properly.
There are pedagogs supporting a theory that the rank beginner benefits most from premium implements, as these don't interfere with learning.

I won't attend another woodworking class where the students bring their own tools; 2/3 of the class time is wasted trying to get the hand plane shaped objects to cut straight.

[John Coloccia]

I can't afford to buy cheap tools. The only thing worse than not having a tool is spending money on a tool that doesn't work properly. Now I'm out however much the tool cost, I've lost room in my shop and I STILL don't have a working tool.

[Alan Lightstone]

I've stopped buying cheap tools. I've become a real believer in buy once, cry once. I can't tell you how many crappy tools I've given away over the years.

[Kirk Poore]

Buying used tools generally will require acquisition of a second skill set--machinery repair. For most stuff, it's not hard, but it can be a real nail biter the first time you, say, change the bearings in an electric motor. There are a lot of guys who don't have the time or desire to learn how to repair things. That's OK--I don't like fixing my cars, and don't want to spend time on it. I just want to drive (and maybe do oil changes). I learned how to do the repairs because I wanted bigger machines that were only available used. Now I'm down to one machine bought new--a 1990's Jet bandsaw. The next newest machine is from the 1960's. If you have the mechanical inclination, and the time, used is really the way to get bang for your buck.

Kirk