Combo Machines (used) to shop for

[michael vestel]

Summary: I'm looking for combo machines (sliding TS, J/P, mortise, shaper) to purchase used. I'm asking to get help completing a list of manufacturers and model within the parameters of cost (<10k used), quality (mini max, Felder, etc), and that i might find available on the used market (popularity or highly manufactured models).




My basement workshop was recently ruined by a basement flooded when a 22" city fresh water main blew and flooded our neighborhood, making my basement a 4' deep pool. I've accepted it, thought I am sad I may never end up with another 15" helical head Powermatic planer again (and it was two weeks old).


But on to bigger and better things...(no sympathy needed :-)


I've decided that the space savings and quality of a home 5 in one combo machine (based on a sliding table saw together with a planer, jointer, mortise, spindle shaper) will do the trick to cheer me up. I'm starting from scratch and have done the research and examined my type of work to decide a sliding table saw and combo unit are what i desire. I think the ideal thing for me might be the Mini Max CU 300 smart with the 8.5' sliding capacity. I do want the full sheet goods cut capability.


I'm setting my max budget as the new CU 300 smart price of about $11k. Ideally i'll find a used machine for a fraction of that. For example, I saw a CU 300 recently (weeks ago) go for $6500. just missed it.


I'm shopping for used models, and would like to build my list to search.


Current list:


Mini Max
CU 300 smart w/ 8.5' capacity on the outrigger table
CU410 Elite or Elite-S


Hammer/Felder
CF 531 Professional
C3 31 Perform


Robland 310?


Question
What other models meet the above criteria?


Thanks!


Michael

[David Kumm]

The mm Elite S is the top of the line for MM. The Felder 700 series falls between the Elite S and the Elite. The best built combo is the Knapp which isn't made anymore. I would buy a used one in a heartbeat. Most parts can be sourced elsewhere and they are priced about the same or a little less than used MM or Felder for more machine. I would buy used with your budget . You can get a better machine and with a combo quality is everything. No offense to the Hammer guys but they are not the equivalent to the 700 or Elite series. www.airtightclamps.com has a combo for sale and they come up regularly on CL for 9-12K. The one on Mac's site(airtight) has a couple grand of accessories. Take a look. Join the Felder and MM Yahoo groups and you will find postings there as well. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Michael, I don't think you would regret buying the MiniMax or the Felder/Hammer

I have a Hammer A3-31 J/P and a B3 Winner saw/shaper, which I am extremely pleased with.

I have the smaller sliding table (able to crosscut a sheet), which is all that I need.

I have the tilting spindle shaper, much more useful than a fixed spindle.

For me, the Felder dealer is in my town, they have excellent customer support and a wide array of accessories for the machine.

That's the key thing, some options such as scoring need to be installed at the factory so you have to plan out your purchase. Accessories can be added at home as required.

The other question is whether you want a monolithic machine or you want to have a J/P and a Saw/shaper? Many people like that arrangement best for floor space and ease of use.

Add a power feeder to your combo without question.

Although I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your Powermatic, with the Euro combo machines you're heading into a whole other universe of capabilities and capacities.

Regards, Rod.

[Craig McCormick]

I had a Robland X31 from Laguna. I loved everything except for the sliding table. Getting the sliding table set up accurately was a joke and it wouldn't stay in alignment for long. Thats the only reason I sold it.

Craig

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I think the ideal thing for me might be the Mini Max CU 300 smart with the 8.5' sliding capacity. I do want the full sheet goods cut capability.l

Get a Festool Track saw for your sheet goods and you'll only need the 5ft slider. Now lot's of room for other stuff.

[Jeff Monson]

www.airtightclamps.com has a combo for sale and they come up regularly on CL for 9-12K. The one on Mac's site(airtight) has a couple grand of accessories. Take a look.

I'll second that advice, I looked at that combo on Macs site yesterday. Thats a real savings with that CF700, the accessories alone are worth alot. IMO thats a great price on that machine.

[Mike Ruggeri]

I have a CU300 Smart and love it - a great machine. It took some getting used to, but once you work with a high quality slider you won't want to go back to a traditional tablesaw. I've worked with mine in a hobby capacity for 2 years now and it has served me very well.

I respectfully disagree with Mike and would recommend getting a 8.5ft slider vs a 4 foot or 5 foot. My reasoning is that it hardly takes up any more room and gives you so much more capacity. When I first got my machine I thought I made a mistake of going with the 8.5ft slider, but I soon got over that when I learned to really appreciate the capacity it offered.

I agree with other and say look for a used machine. I bought mine used and saved a considerable amount vs buying new. Probably due to the economy, there seems to be a bunch for sale these days at good prices. It depends on what your requirements are, but for me I narrowed down the field to Minimax and Felder as I thought they were the best quality for my needs.

Mike

[ed vitanovec]

I have a Rokek Jointer/Planer and the quality is really nice and runs really smooth. Recently I had used my stand alone shaper alot and had the need use my table saw as well, at that point I realized I was glad I did not have the combo Table/Shaper. For me to have to make the change overs would have taken quite a bit of time. I noticed a Craigs List Ad in the Los Angeles area from Laguna Tools, they are selling a NX31 for $5500.

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/2837675185.html

[Carl Knapp]

Hi Guys,
I need to put my two cents in. Keep in mind I work for Felder however I wouldn't say anything that I couldn't back up. I know all these machine very well. I would suggest calling all the companies selling the machines you are interested in. Get in touch with your area sales representative. Have him send you all the information including manual links, DVDs, catalogs, Etc. I would also join all the owners groups. If you find out that a smaller slider will work, We have a CU350 with tilting shaper and 75 inch slider on our web site that we are advertising for the customer who lives in NM. It is a nice machine.
You must have a good size basement. You need to map out your area really good to make sure the stroke with the out rigger, crosscut fence and a panel will fit. You need to figure out where the blade will be and then map out a 17 foot by 4 foot path to the left of the blade so you can clean an edge. You can cut the panel in half but then you're not using the machine to its potential. I always say if you have the room get the longer slider. However if you are really squeezing it and don't process a lot of sheets. Mike had a good point about the Festool. I have a lot of customers that break the sheet with the Festool and then square it on the cross cut.

One thing I must comment on is that in my opinion the new 700 series built from April of 2007 on , is the best machine to date.

[ian maybury]

I had a Robland combo too which I used pretty casually for about 10 years, and while it was rock solid in many ways I can agree regarding the vagaries of the sliding table. There were issues with the positioning of the planer tables so that they messed up the rip fence installation too. Not to mention that the dust collection was pretty marginal.

It seems to me that how much of an issue the space taken up by a long slider and wide support frame is depends a lot on how large/small/tightly laid out your shop is. Being on a budget i bought a K3 Perform Hammer with a 8ftx8ft slider set up, and can confirm that the footprint in a small shop is one heck of a lot more than e.g. the Robland or any other small combo. Against that a track saw is to my mind pretty inconvenient and still needs a cutting table that takes up a lot of space, and crawling around on the floor (presuming you have the space there) to make cuts is no fun either.

I bought separates to replace the Robland, but think that Rod's point about a saw/shaper combo being a set up that saves some space but avoids many of the operating inconveniences of a full combo (and adds availability of the long slider) holds water - there's times i wonder if I shouldn't have gone that route.

Make sure if you go a long slider that it can definitely handle an 8ft sheet. What some makers call an 8ft slider is literally that - there's no room for a clamp or whatever along with an 8ft sheet. It can be worked around, but if possible the actual slider needs to be a bit longer than the maximum sheet.

Either way a scale layout of the shop with paper cutouts of the machine foot prints that you can move around helps a lot.....

ian

[Ben Abate]

Hi guys,
I have to agree with Carl, I'm an owner of a KF 700 SP since 2004. You really have to do your homework when buying one of these machines. There are so many options that can be aquired that it will make your head spin. I've not used a newer machine as Carl mentioned but in my opinion even prior to 2007 I felt Felder had it over the others. I spent a year looking at MM and Knapp and joined the online communities and not only for my purpose did I feel the Felder was the better machine but the online community and the service from Felder were again in my opinion superior to the other groups out there. Not only Felder service and the FOG group but a fellow, David Best wrote a book on Felder Machines that is so valuable to setting up and using your machine that I've heard of MM users buying his book for reference. Yes,,,I'm biased but I really believe Felder 700 series machines are top of the line in the combo arena. Knapp was a pretty good machine but now since they no longer exist I don't think I'd touch one. Support is very important when buying in this price range......Not your fathers unisaw here. These machines have electronics involved and VFDs, single phase, three phase. Buying one is an investment and a commitment to a lot of money. Then there are the accessories and extras that you haven't thought of yet.....AIGNER and MARTIN accessories for these machines. You'll not be able to buy Aigner and Martin accessories for a MM..... Pretty biased aren't I ???? It's just that I've had my machine going on 8 years and it's been very good to me and the FOG group is not your usual forum type group. These guys are knowledgeable and they can also tell you how to make wine and and fix your 1964 Austin Martin....Haha..

Ben

[David Kumm]

Both Carl Knapp and Sam Blasco of MM are straight shooters and give good advice. Since your budget is limited, used is the best bet. The machine in the best condition with the most accessories will serve you well. The 700 and Elite are the top of the current offerings. I understand Ben's concern for support but as a guy with machines from the 1920s through the 1970s I am less so. I have a couple of Felders, a Knapp, and a SCMI Class series shaper so I can tell you that the euro build quality is good. There are differences within each brand over the years and certain machines have pluses and minuses but either will be a joy to use. I would argue that on the used market the lack of support for the Knapp has been priced into the machine. A
Felder or MM high end combo will go in the $10-13+ range. Based solely on build quality the Knapp would be a couple of grand more. It is the best built machine but generally sells for less. The last two I watched went for under 9K. Given the electronics are off the shelf din rail units, the fences are standard Bosch extrusions, and the miter gauge from the SCMI will fit, if the spindles and particularly the high speed-23000rpm router spindle is included- I would consider it. If buying a combo used I would verify at least three measurements. You want the sliding table to be flat to within .001-.003 across the length. It is OK if the extrusion moves up or down right on the ends as they generally don't matter but the part that will slide past the shaper needs to be flat. Some extrusions are less than perfect. You also want no vibration and .001 or less runout on the shaper and not much more on the saw arbor. Most other stuff you can adjust. I don't have a JP but others can advise on that. The key to a slider is one that the table adjustments stay in place. Dave

[Chris Tsutsui]

I would have gone for used, but months went by and I didn't see any great deals so I ended up with a Hammer K3 Winner.

If you don't find an amazing deal on a felder then don't be disheartened by their hammer line. The hammer may be a step down due to a budget compromised sliding table, trunion, etc. However I highly doubt that the felder would make me a better wood worker. As long as I can get within 3 thousandths of an inch after the 5 sided cut test on a 3'x3' panel and the saw holds its settings i'm good.

Maybe if I'm old and rich then I'll get the latest and greatest 700 series felder for gloating purposes on this forum.

If I had to do things all over and was given $10K.

First I'd try to find a pre-owned flagship unit like you are looking for, but it would have to be fairly new and hobby owned/not abused. I would have to inspect it before I arranged for freight to pick it up because if something is wrong with the slider then it's NOT going to be easy to fix yourself.

I would buy a slightly smaller Hammer K3 Winner than the one I have now which is the biggest one, then get the Hammer Jointer Planer with spiral head. With the left over money I'd shop for a used Grizzly or Delta shaper because I know i'll probably end up selling it after I realize I don't use it much. Then instead of buying the mortising attachment, I'd shop for a used Domino and/or Leigh FMT. I actually like having a separate J/P and tablesaw because I can use the rolling bases to push them back to back, or move one into the corner to give myself more space to work around the tablesaw.

Please update us if you find a good saw and how everything goes!