Coarse Stone and Flattening Plate

[James White]

I am need of a new flattening plate. My DMT Diasharp has worn out. I would also like to be able to flatten the backs of plane irons and chisels faster than my Norton 220 grit wet stone currently does. So I would like to ask your recommendations. I was ready to get the new dmt Diaflat but I have read some concerns that it is too coarse for finer stones. So what do you all recommend.

A flattening plate that can do all of my stones coarse and fine and a new stone that will cut faster than the Norton 220. If that is even possible. My stones are the Norton 220 and Shapton glass 1000,4000,8000 and a Shapton Pro 16,000? or 12,000? not sure at that last ones grit.

James

[David Weaver]

flatten the backs of your chisels with norton 3x 100. Cut it with a utility knife along a straight edge and stick it down to a known flat surface with spray adhesive (from anywhere, home depot is fine). It must be stuck down. If it is loose, it will either get cut, dub a chisel or do some other thing you don't want it to do. It will outcut a stone, and you'll get three "stones" worth for each sheet. Use it dry.

Get a DMT duosharp (check amazon or google shopping) with coarse and x coarse, use the coarse side for your stones, and xcoarse for metal (or the other way around). Whatever side you choose to use with stones, never use it on metal, and it will last a very long time.

Flatten the norton 220 with 60 grit wet and dry sandpaper or throw it away.

If your pro isn't a 1000, it's probably 1500.

[James White]

Dave,

I left a zero off of the Pro. I fixed it now.

So with your recommendation to go with 100 grit paper. What do you follow that up with? 1000g stone?

James

[David Weaver]

yes, a 1000 grit glasstone will follow 100 grit sandpaper just fine. The benefit of the paper over a coarse stone is that it will actually be flat the entire time you use it. Coarse stones are transient in flatness to different degrees.

3x works well dry and you can brush off or vacuum off the black stuff. Because it stays dead flat, the fairly large step to a 1000 grit stone isn't a problem (it would be if the stone became worn hollow or out of flat).

[Chris Griggs]

I used to use the coarse sandpaper for backs, but have come to prefer coarse waterstones to it. I always felt like the sandpaper wore down too quickly - I would brush it off and this would help, but even when kept clean I felt it would lose its bite to fast. It will certainly work well, but I feel like my Shapton Pro 120 works faster, even with the required flattening and cleanup. There are other supposedly better coarse stones out there too, but I use the Shapton 120 because it was given to me for free. Coarse waterstones do build up swarth very quickly but the ones I've used tend to keep cutting for fast for a while even when they look clogged. Frequent dressing with a diamond stone also keeps my 120 cutting very fast.

(Archie will no doubt be along soon to tell you all about the Sig 120, King 300, Chosera 400 and 600, [which are all fantastic BTW] and probably something else I can't recall - in that order )

I agree with Dave that the big jump is fine (Archie will disagree). As Dave said, just make sure your 1k is nice and flat to start with.

[Greg Fletcher]

I've been using the norton3x 100 per David's suggestion in a previous thread on back flattening and it works well.

I just received my order from Stu containing the Sigma power 120, 400, and the 1K-6K-13K stones. The 120 seems to be too agressive for the backs because it leaves some pretty deep scratches. It seems to work well on bevels though.

Before reading this thread yesterday I used the 400 to flatten the backs of some Narex bench chisels and it did a good job. Today I tried an old 2" bench plane chisel and the 400 wasn't cutting it as quickly maybe due to the larger area. I went to the 100 grit and it was much faster. The step up to the 400 wasn't too bad but I think I am going to get some 220 grit to speed up the process. The jump from the 400 to the 1000 is okay.

[David Weaver]

If you go through enough flattening that you get tired of throwing away sandpaper, it might be time to look at loose diamonds on mild steel or iron (which also stays flat).

Loose diamonds that coarse are not nice for bevel work, though.

But for flattening, you can put pressure on a setup like that until your feet come off the ground, and it's no issue.

[Bill Haumann]

I recently got a sigma power 120 grit stone and it is very quick. It is worlds apart from the norton 220 - much much faster, stays flat (certainly doesn't dish when I look at it like my norton 220). I've also been able to go from the sigma to an 800 with little problem.

- Bill

[Archie England]

As Chris mentioned, I've totally converted from sandpaper to low grit waterstones, and I prefer them over oilstones, as well. The Sigma power 120 is a beast on backs but works well on bevels. I, too, have stopped using it to flatten backs due to the deep scratches left. My King Deluxe 300 is a really aggressive stone that gives me good service on bevels and backs, and it works as a splash-n-go and stays incredibly flat. These two stones really have positively changed how I prep blades for sharpening. The Shapton Pro 120 is closer to the Chosera 400 than to my 300; but, as Chris said, if you'll keep it scuffed up it will cut more abrasively.

As for flattening stones from my 300 to my 13000--I use the iWood 300 that Stu sells (ToolsfromJapan). In the last six months I've flattened blade backs from scratch on about 60 blades, plus used my stones (Sigmas and Choseras) to sharpen dozen of blades for woodworking and the iWood is holding up fantastically! That or the Atoma 400 are my top choices. BTW, I tried the DuoSharp DMT and it doesnt' hold up nearly so well.

[David Weaver]

Nothing will hold up to indefinite use for backs or bevels (though a stone that's burnt out on backs will still work fine for honing bevels if not grinding), but any diamond hone will hold up indefinitely to working stones - waterstones at least (maybe you could burn one out on an oilstone).

I'd consider flatness of a diamond hone the most important for flattening stones. If there is some stiction with one (like the DMT vs. Atoma deal), you can always use more water.

While I like the atoma better, it costs quite a bit more, I guess (I say that pretending i've ever been tight about stones). I think if someone wants to get down to the business of just sharpening things and keeping their stones flat and doing it at a low cost, the duosharp is probably the winner. If cost is no object, I would probably opt for the atoma (I've not tried the $150+ plate that DMT makes, I don't think it's necessary for flattening stones in the shop). I have a knock-off of the iwood (well, two of them), it's a nice design, too.

[Lars Larson]

I have the DMT Dia-Flat and have had no issues with using it to flatten finer stones. I use it exclusively for my water stones and do not use it for back flattening. Currently the highest grit stone I am using is a 10000 Sigma Select II and I cannot detect any flaws after truing it up with the DMT. It takes care of things quickly and gets me back to sharpening (and working) with a minimum of time invested.

Lars

[James White]

BTW, I tried the DuoSharp DMT and it doesnt' hold up nearly so well.

I didn't realize it when Dave first recommended it. But my first diamond stone was a DuoSharp. I paid $100 for it from Rockler. Not only was it not flat. I killed it the first time I flattened my Norton 220 with it. I felt that DMT would not warranty it after that and Rockler is 1.5hrs drive into Boston for me. So I have a bad taste in my mouth after that deal.

How many others have used a diamond plate on there coarse stones with no Ill effects. From what has been discussed so far I think the Iwood sounds good. I could go for the Atoma if there are some who have been able to favorably compare it to the IWood. But if there isn't any reason to spend the extra. I don't think I will.

Before I started this thread I had the Shapton Pro 120 in mind for my coarsest stone. But it seems there may be some better choices. The Sigma power sounds like it may be a bit too coarse. So what is the happy medium? Is it the Shapton 120?

James

[David Weaver]

Couple of things:
* if the duosharp isn't flat, DMT will replace it (maybe it's too late, I don't know, but the worst you can do is at least find out)
* I think the duosharps have a lifetime warranty. I don't know what it warrants against, but I hear DMT's service is good. It's free to call them.
* Most of the woodworking places are very bad places to buy diamond hones price-wise. Stu's probably the exception for the iwood and atoma. I saw what is equivalent to an iwood 300/1000, i believe, for well over $100 at one place (can't remember what brand they put on it, but it was very evident what it was) and the same thing without specifying brand at JWW for over $100. I believe stu's price is about $80.
* For the DMTs, I've bought three of them for $60 from amazon. One for me, one for a buddy and one I sent to stu, because he can't get them over there. Stu's even came with a base. I didn't like the base (it reminded me of a plastic transformers toy), but stu can comment on that. I guess it's better than nothing, but maybe not worth what it cost to ship it. It's not as good as the iwood or atoma bases (I don't know if the atoma base has anything to do with atoma, though, it may just be a marketed hard rubber base in japan).

Any electroplated hone is going to wear out with tools. if you have the discipline to keep a very light touch on the finer ones, they'll last a lot longer. All of them should be OK for working bevels long after you get displeased with how fast they start to see inadequate for flattening backs. Maybe oil or kero on the stones that allow it (not the atoma) will extend their life by reducing the friction between the blade and the diamonds. I hear some of the really coarse stones last longer, but they're not cheap and they are deep scratchers, deeper than loose diamonds on a kanaban from what I can tell. maybe it's in my head, I don't know.

I personally don't like any of the coarse waterstones stones (or oilstones). Not the old (and hard carborundum/silicon carbide stones), not the shapton 220, definitely not the norton 220, etc. But if lots of other folks do, there must be some virtue to them. Certainly for knives where you don't have the back of a tool causing them to load up, they're useful.

[TODD RAYMER]

I use the norton 3x sandpaper to flatten the backs of my chisels and plane blade followed by water stones. I also keep a magnet handy to pick up the metal shavings from the sand paper when it starts to look dark from the shavings. I take a magnet wrap paper around it and when I'm done I take the magnet out of the paper and the shaving fall right off.

[Archie England]

I have the iWood 300; it's $53 + shipping from Stu; the 300/1000 is $80. I've had no problems with mine and I've used it a lot for flattening stones exclusively.

And, yes, there are many viable ways to arrive at the same destination. So, enjoy the venue you've chosen.

Stu tells me that the Sigma 400 is a much better stone than the King Deluxe 300. I will eventually buy one, but the King works well enough for now. Another friend thinks the Gesshin 400 is a bit better than the Sigma 400 in terms of speed. He's keeping both, though.

Before I gave the Shapton 120 to Chris, I did a lot of comparative testing with it and it's very much like the Cho 400. Chris spends more time flattening it so it works as a faster cutter that way. Otherwise, it loads up and works much like a Cho 400. The scratch patterns are very similar, yielding an edge that will sharpen quickly. So, my guess is that the Shapton 120/Cho 400 are bested by the King 300, the Gesshin 400, and the Sigma power 400, the latter which also outperforms a Sigma Select II 240--according to Orlando. Now that I've invested in better waterstones my old go-to Norton India stone stays stored and idle. Occasionally I'll pull it out to reassess it's performance but the waterstones continually beat it.

Have fun...