Kitchen Cabinet Question

[keith micinski]

Just sayin that throwin a cabinet off a roof and keepin it intact is a hellofa good test. If the cabinet holds up, then it earns a place in the kitchens I build. If it cannot hold up, then maybe it belongs in someone elses kitchen. Just like building code is a basic standard, but you can still build better!

In this test imagine if you built an emergency parachute for the cabinets... I am pretty sure we won't be seeing that design any time soon. Designing a test that has no bearing on what the cabinet is actually going to be used for makes no sense. This is a classic marketing trick. By the way I have only used Plywood and probably wouldn't use Melamine but not because if I threw it in a volcano it would burn up quicker.

[David Larsen]

In this test imagine if you built an emergency parachute for the cabinets... I am pretty sure we won't be seeing that design any time soon. Designing a test that has no bearing on what the cabinet is actually going to be used for makes no sense. This is a classic marketing trick. By the way I have only used Plywood and probably wouldn't use Melamine but not because if I threw it in a volcano it would burn up quicker.

I do not actually throw cabinets off the roof of the garage. The example was purposely meant to hyperbolize the effect!

Most houses built will never see a hurricane or tornado, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't want to build it to withstand such a force.

I just removed a couple of bathroom vanities that were around 40 years old. I didn't build them. They held up adequately over that period. Once removed, I noticed just how flimsy they were built. Yes, they worked, but there isn't any reason why they couldn't have been built better. Rather than looking for a 40 year lifespan, why not shoot for the 150 year span.

Cabinets don't have to be a disposable commodity.

[scott vroom]

Most houses built will never see a hurricane or tornado, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't want to build it to withstand such a force.

That is true but it's also faulty logic. A home is Florida is built to withstand a hurricane because some homes in Florida are exposed to hurricanes. I've never seen installed kitchen cabinets falling to the ground from 10-15 feet elevation.

[frank shic]

the truth of the matter is that we tend to overbuild and it's not always necessary. how many cases have you heard of a kraftmaid kitchen cabinet failing? have you ever seen one returned at home depot? they juse use 1/2" plywood for the sides! i'll stick with 3/4" prefinished plywood or 5/8" melamine when i'm building face frame and the the doors don't have windows with a 1/4" back and either a nailer on the back for lower cabinets and cabinet hangers for upper cabinets. i'll use 3/4" melamine for frameless which is enormously easy if you have the right set up...

[David Larsen]

That is true but it's also faulty logic. A home is Florida is built to withstand a hurricane because some homes in Florida are exposed to hurricanes. I've never seen installed kitchen cabinets falling to the ground from 10-15 feet elevation.

You are missing the analogy of the experiment example. The point I was trying to make is that if the plywood cabinet fares better than the melamine cabinet after being dropped off a garage roof, then it should be able to pretty much withstand anything thrown its way in a kitchen environment. Yes, nothing in the kitchen environment will subject it to such forces, but the experiment was hyperbolizing the example. If I were to have stated the experiment as anything less it wouldn't have created the same value.

I for one consider melamine as an inferior product for cabinet boxes because it cannot hold fasteners and lacks flexibility. The smooth surfaces and stability does have benefits, but I don't think they outweigh the shortfalls.

Put 3/4 melamine and 3/4 plywood to various tests. Give the pros and cons and I would say the plywood will come out on top. IMHO

[frank shic]

i don't think we're missing your analogy, david. i prefer fruity desserts over cakes and cookies btw

[Sam Murdoch]

It is MUCH MUCH easier for a casual cabinet maker (or a pro for that matter) to build a good solid and nice looking cabinet using 3/4" plywood for the box and 1/2" ply for the back, then with 1/2" thick material for the boxes, whether of plywood or any other sheet materials - IMNSHO

[Richard McComas]

It is MUCH MUCH easier for a casual cabinet maker (or a pro for that matter) to build a good solid and nice looking cabinet using 3/4" plywood for the box and 1/2" ply for the back, then with 1/2" thick material for the boxes, whether of plywood or any other sheet materials - IMNSHO

Having use both plywood and melamine for building cabinets I would appreciate a more detailed explication of " MUCH MUCH easier". What/why is plywood "MUCH MUCH easier"? Other than the weight of moving full sheet of melamine I haven't found a significant difference between the two materials.

P.S. How many melamine naysayers in this thread have real hands on experience over a reasonable period of time in using a melamine product. How many boxes have you built and what were your failures with this material.

[frank shic]

i've found that professional grade melamine doesn't bow as much which makes a huge difference if you're building frameless or if you have the carcase aligned with the outer edge of the face frame. the other advantage is that melamine typically comes in sheets that are oversized by 1" in both directions which makes it possible to get TWO 24" panels out of one sheet. that 3/4" melamine sure is a good workout though lol

[Rob Sack]

I have been building kitchens for almot 30 years. Have I used melamine? Sure, but only if the customer insists. It's heavy, it outgases, and frankly it's not as durable or cleanable as it is claimed to be. It will stain and it will be easily damaged if heavy and/or sharp objects come into contact with it. Unfortunately, in commercial installations, it is sometimes required by the Health Department. I did all the cabinetry in one of those juice/smoothy type of stores. One of the sinks had a persistent leak, and as a result, within 6 months the floor of the sink cabinet swelled from 3/4" to 1 1/8" in thickness, a 50% increase. This is not easily repaired. I always recommend prefinished, veneer core, domestically produced plywood for all cabinet interiors. Damages from heavy and/or sharp objects can be more easily repaired. Although it is not impervious to long term water damage, the damage would probably be less severe than the damage to melemine.

[Sam Murdoch]

Richard, my "much much easier" comment was primarily an indictment of using 1/2" sheet goods over 3/4" material, especially for an occasional cabinet maker. Holding screws, holding glue, holding shape, holding other mechanical fastenings or joint aids such as biscuits, dowels or dominos, are all advantages of the thicker material. In lots of years I have built maybe 3 kitchens with melamine so as you suggest, I can't really write with authority about the pros and cons VS plywood construction. Nonetheless, don't you agree that the weight, the need to pre score, and the fact that you can't just drive in screws are issues that could certainly frustrate a one time or very occasional cabinet builder? The introduction of the Festool track saw has eliminated the first 2 concerns, but not everyone has one of those.

I offer my opinion for the consideration of those who come to this forum looking for ideas, advice, or just to affirm the possibilities. My way is not the best or the onlyest, just one way that works very well for me. Hope that my posts are useful and not argumentative, though, as I admit, I am one opinionated little woodworker.

[Jim Andrew]

When I was involved in a cabinet shop, we used 1/2" sides and bottoms, and ran the front edges through a router table setup that produced a tongue of 1/4 x 1/4, and the face frames had a groove on the inside, which that tongue fit into. Then we put the face frame flat on a clamping table and put the box together, pin nailed it together and stapled through the tongue into the face frame. Using glue of course. In my home shop I wouldn't consider trying to nail into the edge of 1/2" plywood, and the tongue fit into the face frame was a real pain also, so I use 3/4" ply in the cabinets I build now in my home shop.

[John A langley]

Hal - To answer your question, I use shop birch by Columbia Products for my stain grade face frame cabinets. I use melamine for my Euro cabinets. I use MDF for my paint grade cabinets. My sides, bottoms and tops are 3/4" thick. backs 1/4", I use a hanging rail. Good luck with your project.

[Rob Sack]

Having use both plywood and melamine for building cabinets I would appreciate a more detailed explication of " MUCH MUCH easier". What/why is plywood "MUCH MUCH easier"? Other than the weight of moving full sheet of melamine I haven't found a significant difference between the two materials.

P.S. How many melamine naysayers in this thread have real hands on experience over a reasonable period of time in using a melamine product. How many boxes have you built and what were your failures with this material.

This is one "melamine naysayer," as you put it, who has been using melamine for over 20 years and that crap Kortron before that when I had to. It's not MY failures that have been the problem, it's been the MATERIAL'S failures. Let's see. It doesn't glue well even using rabbets and dadoes. It doesn't hold screws or nails well. It splits very easily when screwed or nailed into an edge. It has much less structural integrity. It won't span nearly as well plywood. The surface will stain. It is susceptible to extreme damage when exposed to moisture, such as in sink cabinets and bath cabinets. I could go on, but I think I make my point. Oh, I almost forgot. If you pardon my sarcasm, there's nothing like a particleboard core that says QUALITY.

[Richard McComas]

This is one "melamine naysayer," as you put it, who has been using melamine for over 20 years and that crap Kortron before that when I had to. It's not MY failures that have been the problem, it's been the MATERIAL'S failures. Let's see. It doesn't glue well even using rabbets and dadoes. It doesn't hold screws or nails well. It splits very easily when screwed or nailed into an edge. It has much less structural integrity. It won't span nearly as well plywood. The surface will stain. It is susceptible to extreme damage when exposed to moisture, such as in sink cabinets and bath cabinets. I could go on, but I think I make my point. Oh, I almost forgot. If you pardon my sarcasm, there's nothing like a particleboard core that says QUALITY.

Yes, you made your point. The point I see is you don't know how to construct a cabinet box made with melamine.

You don't nail melamine.

You don't dado melamine.

You don't glue melamine.

You don't use just any ole screw in melamine.


The AWI if you know what that is has certified (when constructed properly) melamine cabinets as a premium grad cabinet. This construction can easily be done in a small shop with out a lot of expensive machinery. All you need is a good saw blade, The right screws and drill bit.

Not being a very articulate person I have take the liberty to copy and past the follow paragraph from the WoodWeb's professional cabinet forum.This should give you a clue on what screws to use.

"Confirmats are vastly superior to assembly screws - this is why they are accepted as AWI premium grade joinery, and assembly screws are not. Confirmats are designed to be used without glue. The larger diameter of a Confirmat screw improves joint strength because it allows the threads to bite into the denser outer edges of particleboard. It is also more rigid than an assembly screw. Confirmats make sense whether you manually bore the pilot holes with a step drill bit, or you pre-bore with an assembly boring machine. Either way works. An assembly boring machine is not a prerequisite for Confirmat assembly."

My typical melamine is constructed as in the picture take notice of how I like to install the 3/4'' back panel. It is screwed from both the back and the sides. AWI also has specs on the screw spacing and distance from the edge to qualify as a premium grade cabinet.


The cabinet top and deck are cut narrower than the cabinets sides.